Proof question

[EdinFlorida]

Hi all.
I am looking at a pistol for possible purchase. It has the following proofs.
eagle crown u.jpg croen N.jpg
Would these suggest a date pre-1939?
Also ... is it odd to see the N and U marks at thesame time?

Thanks and have a wonderful Christmas>

[Axel E]

Pre-1940 and post-1912, to be exact. These marks together are not unusual at all. The complete proofs on a shotgun barrel should be: B = proof load fired, N = smokeless proof, S = shotgun, W = choke bored, U = inspected for defects.From 1940 on these marks were replaced by a single eagle over N mark.

[EdinFlorida]

What I thought. They are on a Walter Munk free pistol that is identified as being post WW2, 1950;s actually. That is what confused me. Was Munk actually producing pistols in Suhl at that time?

[algmule]

Xzxzxzxzxzxz

[EdinFlorida]

Odd. The pistol I am looking at "looks" old, that is to say of post ww1 vintage. I mean in terms of wood and metal finish.

You know, I used to collect swords and you found the name "Andrea Ferrara" engraved on some. It was sort of a totem, or a definition of quality or, perhaps, fraud. I wonder if using Weimer proofs on a gun from the 1950's, from east germany was a way of suggesting pre war quality? I am now assuming that the gun was made post WW2.

[Axel E]

Ed, you should have told me first, these marks being on a Walter Munk pistol. Walter Munk, born 1908, was the nephew of Franz Neumann and took over the business about WW2, After 1945 he built the Zentrum II target pistols for the BUEHAG, Suhl. The Zentrum II was a highly refined single shot Free Pistol used in Olympic games not only by the GDR teams, but by others too. About 2736 were made from 1954 to 1980, most for export. The east German GST organization got 377, according to Dieter?s book.

While west Germany continued to use the post-1940 proofmarks, just the straight winged 3^rd Reich eagle replaced by the drooped wing Federal Republik one, the GDR went back to the pre ? 1940 proofmarks and used them on a regular base from 1951 to 1974.
Ed, you got a PM

[Axel E]

You know, I used to collect swords and you found the name "Andrea Ferrara" engraved on some. It was sort of a totem, or a definition of quality or, perhaps, fraud.

Not a new idea then to fake a trademark on swords. The early medieval , 8^t to 11^th century Ulfberht blades come to my mind immediately. About 170 such swords are known, most found in Scandinavia. But they are most likely of west German origins, the monasteries Fulda and Lorsch high suspects. The blades are all inlaid with +ULFBERH+T , quite often in somewhat corrupted spelling. Or the 12^th century Wolf mark of Passau city. This Wolf was soon copied by the Solingen bladesmiths who continued to use it long after Passau production ended. Myself, I identified such a Solingen fake mark for our then county archeologist. It was on a 15^th century sword found in one of our forests, close to a former medieval border watchtower.