Karl Kelber, Gewehrlauffabrikant

[algmule]

Hello

buckstix,
very many thanks. Saw the images over at the NE-forum. This is the first barrel with the "double-K" markings dated before 1925 I have seen (I assume the marking "10.7/21" is a date stamp). It is helpful as I may shed some of the people I have listed as possible contenders for the marking, but at the same time it also broadens the field of research quite considerably. I have a long list of people that occupied themselves with various barrel work that I keep updating, but so far I have chosen not to include anyone with titles such as gunsmith and master gunsmith. The marking AGS is slightly confusing. It is not to my knowledge a marking for August Schueler, Suhl. Are there any other/proper proof marks present? The other marking that comes with the steel type is present in this thread. I have only seen it with the steel-type marking so maybe something to do with Krupp.

buckstix.jpg

If I find anything I will let you know but I would not hold my breath if I were you. I will look for an answer, though.

EDIT: as the forum apparently does not accept apostrophes I have edited the post. The forum is worse than my grammar teacher at school. I expect a discussion forum not to require formal writing. I am clearly in the wrong. Also: I have never seen a date marking that looks like the one on buckstix rifle.

Peter

[buckstix]

.... Are there any other/proper proof marks present? The other marking that comes with the steel type is present in this thread. I have only seen it with the steel-type marking so maybe something to do with Krupp. Peter

Hello peter,
Thanks for the reply.

here are all the marks / proofs this gun ... I think the far left proof next to the serial number is the Suhl proof ?

schuler-proofs.jpg

[algmule]

Hello

buckstix,
the lack of proper (Reichsadlers, Untesuchungsstempel etc) proof marks is intriguing. If the marking to the left of the serial number is a marking for the city of Suhl I have not seen it before. 1921, if that is the date of the barrel, is a difficult year to research.

As an aside: there is a marking Suhl in a shield (actually two variants) but the earliest occurence of that one that I have come across is from 1932.

As the "double-K" marking is relatively frequent I would expect it to have been for someone/some establishment specialising (British spelling) in some specific barrel work. If I was forced to come up with a guess for whom the marking "belonged" to, I would say Gebr?der Kelber. After the split in 1927-28, Louis Kelber. Be aware, though, that it is me speculating, and only when forced.

Peter

[mike ford]

The date of 1921 seems to be before the Suhl proof house started dating their proofs, yet it is undoubtedly a "date". It seems to have been placed by the maker, not the proof house, therefore would be from a different numbering system than proof dates. Those that are researching and making lists that try to track age by serial number and proof dates should take notice in order to avoid errors caused by differing data sources.
Mike

[algmule]

Hello

If sticking to surnames beginning with a K my list coughs up 26 names which pre-dates 1925. All of them with titles suggesting they were fiddling with some kind of barrel work. Whether they had their own businesses or were outworkers is unknown. Still sticking with the letter K, the list turns up five businesses that were listed in the Handelsregister pre-1925: Gebrueder Kelber; F. A. Klett; Fr. Wilh. Kober; Kaspar & Krueger G.m.b.H. and Fritz Kiess & Co. There is a sixth business, Wilhelm Kober, but they were more a distributor of wares so I have discarded that firm. The 26 names and the five businesses must be run against what is listed in the thread for businesses post-1925, and two names are still missing from that listing. More importantly, my list does not contain any names with titles such as Buechsenmacher; Buechsenmachermeister; Buechsenmacherei; Gewehrfabrik and Waffenfabrik. All the names and businesses above were from Suhl.

One marking on the barrel of buckstix rifle, "AGS", MAY (note stress, please) be for Aktiengesellschaft, Suhl. Of the businesses mentioned above only one of them was an Aktiengesellschaft, namely F. A. Klett. If disregarding the letter K I have two further businesses that would fit Aktiengesellschaft: Roemerwerk and G. C. Dornheim, both in Suhl, and both supplying parts for guns (I know Dornheim had "outlets" in other places as well, thank you).

My reason for sticking with the letter K is that it is already a seemingly impossible task with K, let alone how much more impossible it would be by including other letters. So, I take the "double-K" marking to be, well, K:s. That does not mean I disregard businesses and names beginning with other letters (read the thread). The thread started as research on Karl Kelber, Gewehrlauffabrikant. He was quickly discarded. The double marking are two K:s. I still, for now, stick with Louis Kelber. Do I know that the marking was for him? No. Will that answer stop me from continuing my research? No. Would I highly appreciate images of the double-marking on barrels? Yes. Will I ever solve the riddle? Only time will tell.

As for lists: the only list I have as regards serial numbers is one of the lists on J. P. Sauer & Sohn serial numbers. The serial numbering from that establishment is not absolute as to year of manufacture. My list of people and businesses with titles which indicate some fiddling with barrel work is not based on serial numbering. My list is based on what I have been able to find in contemporary black-on-white publications. I call them sources. Is my list incomplete. Yes, most certainly. Why? I will not put any name on/in it unless there is a proper source. This means that research is more troublesome but it also means it is more honest, in that I do not impose on others any BS, i.e. I do not make things up. Do I sometimes go wrong when researching? Bound to, I would say.

I am still puzzled by the lack of proper proof marks on the barrel. I have nothing on the marking that is to the left of the serial number. I went through another of my lists, on trademarks/trade names (plus 250 items). Nothing. If possible, I would appreciate a better image.

I look forward to seeing how the rifle shoots.

Also: I still prefer Peter to algmule. Very much so!

EDIT: went a couple of rounds with various Umlauts.
EDIT again: annoying spelling mistakes, and I also inserted a missing "Suhl" plus a couple of ".

Peter

[buckstix]

I am still puzzled by the lack of proper proofs marks on the barrel. I have nothing on the marking that is to the left of the serial number. I went through another of my lists, on trademarks/trade names (plus 250 items). Nothing. If possible, I would appreciate a better image.Peter

Hello peter,
Thanks for the reply.

This is the best image I can get of the barrel marks ... I can't tell what that is inside the shield. Is that perhaps the letter A?proof-1.jpg

[algmule]

Hello

A listing (Gewehrlaeufefabriken) from 1930 lists the following barrel manufacturing facilities for Suhl:
C. G. Haenel
Richard W. Jaeger
Gebrueder Kelber
Wilhelm Kelber
Emil Klett
Roemerwerk
H.[ugo] Schilling
Caspar Schlegelmilch
Hermann Schlegelmilch
Ernst Stoll

The same source gives, under the heading Gewehrlaeufe, the following names for Zella-Mehlis:
Karl Bohn
Ernst Hengelhaupt
Richard Hengelhaupt
Edmund Keller
Heinrich Klett/H.[einrich] Chr.[istian] Klett and Soehne
Oswald Kolb
Max Moeller
Louis Reuss
Hermann Schlegelmilch
Louis Seyfarth
Fritz Seyffarth
Hugo Wagner
Albin (sometimes Alwin) Wahl

The above has led me to update (after shedding a few names) my list from 1925 an onwards to the following:
Richard W. Jaeger – Gewehrlauffabrik, Zella-Mehlis and Heinrichs bei Suhl
Heinrich Klett/Heinrich Klett & Soehne – Zella-Mehlis
Max Moeller – Zella-Mehlis
Gebrueder Kelber – Suhl
Caspar Schlegelmilch – Suhl
Ernst Stoll – Suhl
F. A. Klett – Suhl
J. P. Sauer & Sohn – Suhl
Hermann Schlegelmilch – Suhl
C. G. Haenel – Suhl
Hugo Schilling – Suhl
Richard Hengelhaupt – Zella-Mehlis
Edmund Keller – Zella-Mehlis
Louis Reuss – Zella-Mehlis
Hugo Wagner – Zella-Mehlis
Albin Wahl – Zella-Mehlis
Fritz Seyffarth – Zella-Mehlis
Roemerwerk – Suhl

Interesting to note: the August Menz establishment kept the name Caspar Schlegelmilch (owner when take-over took place in 1928, Alfred Menz) at least up to and until 1930. Hugo Schilling is found post WW2 as Rohrmachermeister (in 1949). As for C. G. Haenel, it came as a surprise to me that the establishment had barrel manufacturing on its menu. What happened to C. G. Haenel post WW2 is unknown to me. The last owner before 1939 was a Herbert Haenel and he is found in 1949 with the title Buerogehilfe. I have seen a couple of post-1945 shotguns marked Werk Haenel and I have shot one of them. A side-plated double in gauge 16, proofed in 1950.
The Fritz Seyffarth business, Zella-Mehlis, became a Kommanditgesellschaft on July 1, 1947 (Herstellung and Vertrieb von Metallwaren) with Fritz Seyffarth as owner, and Frau Maria Seyffarth and Willi Dollit with the right to sign for the business. MAYBE (note stress, please) Maria Seyffarth was the owner before 1947. Roehmerwerk ditched the h in the name on (officially) April 29, 1918, and became Roemerwerk.

EDIT: the forum may in future not accept any letters what so ever, or so it seems. I am seriously considering trying Runes. Annoying.

Peter

[Axel E]

Obviously, it lacks any official proofmarks. A reputable company like Sch?ler would have not taken the risk of selling an unproved gun to any one.
The overall style of the gun is that of a typical Suhl made Mauser sporter of the 1920s, but not the typical Sch?ler big bore rifle style. Typical Sch?ler bigbores have a somewhat potbellied shape at the action area, as Sch?ler made the magazine boxes deeper to get a 4+1 capacity.
The receiver with AGS = August Gottlieb Sch?ler, name of the company run by Richard Sch?ler then, and the barrel with the KK marks and the Sch?ler. Suhl stamp are undoubtedly original. The caliber designation conforms to the German 1940 proof law, but it left the Sch?ler factory unproofed. The Suhl gunmakers usually submitted their rifles for proof only after an order came in. Why spend the proofhouse fees before?
I don’t think that 107/21 number is a 1921 date. At first glance, it resembles a proofdate as marked by the Austrian proofhouses, merely with a / instead of a period, but Sch?ler was in Suhl, Germany, where no such date formats were ever used. Additionally, the markings under the barrel with the complete cartridge designation is of 1940 – 45 use, not before. A pre-1940 German rifle would have been marked 10,8 (the bore/land diameter) over 72.
The action engraving is quite unusual for Suhl. The style rather points to America. The font of the Sch?ler-Suhl name on the receiver was used in Germany from the late 1950s on only. It’s a technical lettering used in technical drawings only. I have never seen it on a gun. The case hardening is too colorful for a prewar Suhl gun. It looks like English or Turnbull style to me. The bright bolthandle was certainly welded on after case hardening the bolt body. It is a Talley Classic Bolt knob apparently.
Another hint is the front sight and it’s base: Obviously an American, Williams?, sight is mounted in a crossing dovetail. On such half-octagonal barrels with integral rib and base the Suhl gunmakers invariably mounted the sight in a lengthwise cut dovetail, just like the English did. But the base shows no such lengthwise cut. So the barrel left Sch?ler’s shop before open sights were mounted.
My coclusions: The barreled action never was completed by Sch?ler. It was sitting in the factory in a not completed, unproofed, perhaps “in the white” state of making until March 1945, when the US army occupied Suhl. Some GI “liberated” the unfinished, but interesting parts before Suhl was ceded to the Soviets in June 45. Years later someone found the rare parts in the USA and had the rifle completed, engraved and finished by American craftsmen. That stockmaker had a general knowledge how a Suhl made Mauser stock should look like, but had never seen a true Sch?ler bigbore.

[algmule]

Hello

I have long wanted to include Simson & Co in my 1925-and-onwards-list of people fiddling with some kind of barrel work. I have not doubted but have not found a source. Finally found a source. Here is the updated list

Richard W. Jaeger: Gewehrlauffabrik. Zella-Mehlis and Heinrichs bei Suhl
Heinrich Klett/Heinrich Klett & Soehne: Zella-Mehlis
Max Moeller: Zella-Mehlis
Gebr?der Kelber: Suhl
Louis Kelber: Suhl
Wilhelm Kelber: Suhl
Caspar Schlegelmilch: Suhl. Taken over by the Menz establishment in 1928
Ernst Stoll: Suhl
F. A. Klett: Suhl
J. P. Sauer & Sohn: Suhl
Hermann Schlegelmilch: Suhl
C. G. Haenel: Suhl
Hugo Schilling: Suhl
Richard Hengelhaupt: Zella-Mehlis
Edmund Keller: Suhl
Louis Reuss: Zella-Mehlis
Hugo Wagner: Zella-Mehlis
Albin Wahl: Zella-Mehlis
Fritz Seyffarth: Zella-Mehlis
R?merwerk: Suhl
Simson & Co: Suhl
Two names are still missing. Both from Suhl. However, I still put my money on the double K-marking being for a Kelber but I do not know that as a fact and I will still very much appreciate images of the double-K marking.

I certainly do not want to start any fiendish arguing but the only trademarks for the business August Sch?ler, Suhl that I know of are the following two

AugustSch?lerSuhl.jpg
AugustSch?lerTrademark-1.jpg

I am not saying that AGS is not for August Gottlieb Sch?ler nor am I saying that AGS is for Aktiengesellschaft, that was as I stressed speculation on my part, but, as August Sch?ler seems to, at least officially, have left the business in 1888 it seems to me that it is rather a long time for a barrel lying around. Also: why would anyone mark a thing with AGS and G being for Gottlieb after he left the trade and also there never was a name Gottlieb mentioned in any official documents as regards the business. It does not make sense to me. If anyone convinces me that AGS on buckstix' rifle actually is for August Gottlieb Sch?ler I will happily yield and also happily admit I am in the wrong. And, please, no bursting of blood vessels.

As an aside, on the August Sch?ler business in Suhl, the information I have:

In 1850 August Gottlieb Sch?ler started manufacturing guns under his name.

1873 – August Sch?ler, Gewehr- und Luxuswaffenfabrik. Founder and owner August Sch?ler, Suhl. An ad from the same year gives that the business was manufacturing/dealing, among other things, “s?mmtliche Gewehrtheile, L?ufe und Munitionsartikel”.

1888 – “In unser Firmenregister ist heute unter No. 284 die Firma August Sch?ler, als ort der Niederlassung Suhl, und als Inhaber der Gewehrfabrikant August Sch?ler zu Suhl eingetragen worden. Suhl, den 6. April 1888. K?nigliches Amtsgericht.”

Quickly (at least reasonably quick! In my view) followed by this:
“I. In unserum Firmenregister ist heute unter No. 284 gel?scht worden die Firma August Sch?ler zu Suhl. II. Gleichzeitig wurde in das Gesellschaft-Register No. 121 eingetragen: die Firma August Sch?ler mit dem sitze zu Suhl. Die Gesellschafter sind: 1) der Gewehrfabrikant Friedrich Sch?ler in Suhl, 2) der Gewehrfabrikant Oskar Sch?ler daselbst. Die Gesellschaft hat begonnen am 23. April 1888. Suhl, den 24. April 1888. K?nigliches Amtsgericht.”

1894 – owners of the business, August Sch?ler, Suhl, are still Friedrich (August Friedrich, really) Sch?ler and Oskar Sch?ler. Both with the title Gewehrfabrikant. August Sch?ler himself is now listed with the title Rentier.

1900 – same owners of the business August Sch?ler, Suhl as for the year 1894. August Sch?ler is still listed in Suhl with the title Rentier.

1909 – same owners of the business August Sch?ler, Suhl as for the years 1894 and 1900. August Sch?ler passed in 1906. Slightly annoying is that there are now three Gewehrfabrikanten Sch?ler in Suhl: August Friedrich, Oskar and Richard but only two of them are listed as owners of the business August Sch?ler, Suhl, August Friedrich and Oskar but not Richard. Also, another Richard Sch?ler has by now popped up. A Richard Sch?ler, Rohrmacher, Suhl.

1911 – “In unser Handelsregister Abteilung A ist bei der unter No. 132 eingetragenen offenen Handelsgesellschaft August Sch?ler in Suhl folgende eintragung bewirkt worden: Der Gewehrfabrikant Friedrich Sch?ler in Suhl ist aus der Gesellschaft ausgetreten. Gleichzeitig is der Gewehrfabrikant Richard Sch?ler in Suhl in die Gesellschaft als pers?nlich haftender Gesellschafter eingetreten. Zur Vertretung der Gesellschaft ist auch dieser erm?chtigt. Suhl, den 2. Februar 1911. K?nigliches Amtsgericht.”

1912- owners of the business August Sch?ler, Suhl, are Oskar Sch?ler and Richard Sch?ler, both with the title Gewehrfabrikant. Address, Roschstrasse 3. The Handelsregister gives the number 195 for the business. Richard (the Rohrmacher) Sch?ler is still in Suhl.

1913 – “Bei der unter No. 132 des Handelsregisters A eingetragenen offenen Handelsgesellschaft August Sch?ler in Suhl ist heute folgende Eintragung bewirkt: Die Gesellschaft ist durch Ausscheiden des bisherigen Gesellschafters Oskar Sch?ler aufgel?st. Der bisherige Gesellschafter Richard Sch?ler ist alleiniger Inhaber der Firma. (26874) K?nigl. Amtsgericht Suhl, den 10. Oktober 1913.” The Rohrmacher Richard Sch?ler is still in Suhl.

1924 – owner of the business August Sch?ler, Suhl is still Richard Sch?ler. The Handelsregister still gives the number 195 for the business. Apart from Richard Sch?ler the following three Sch?ler’s are listed with the title Gewehrfabrikant in Suhl for this year: Friedrich, Oskar and Paul. There is no longer a Rohrmacher Richard Sch?ler in Suhl. A Schlossmacher with that name is however in Suhl.

1927 – Richard Sch?ler is still owner of the August Sch?ler, Suhl business. The Handelsregister still gives the number 195 for the business. Two Sch?ler’s with the title Gewehrfabrikant are listed: Friedrich and Paul. Richard, the Schlossmacher, now goes under the title Gewehrschlossmacher.

1931 – Richard Sch?ler is still owner of the business August Sch?ler, Suhl. Paul Sch?ler’s factory now goes under the name “Rekord-Werkzeugfabrik”. Friedrich Sch?ler is still listed as Gewehrfabrikant.

1936 and 1937 – Richard Sch?ler is still owner of the business August Sch?ler, Suhl. Paul Sch?ler is listed as Fabrikant and Friedrich Sch?ler as Gewehrfabrikant. Interestingly, there is a Franz Sch?ler, Laufziehermeister listed. The Gewehrschlossmacher Richard Sch?ler is still around.

Post-WW2 – the only Sch?lers (relevant to us) I can find post 1945 (1948) are the following: Hermann, B?chsenmacher; Kurt, Sch?fter; Paul, Metallwarenfabrik and Willi, B?chsenmacher.

Also: let us see how long it takes for the above information to end up in an article online.

EDIT: no, Runes does not work!

Peter

[algmule]

Hello

From 1934
1934B?hlerStahl.jpg

and some WK:s from 1930
1930WK.jpg
if indeed the marking to the far right is a WK.

Anyone who are able to work out what the text on the second image from the top is?

Peter

[algmule]

Hello

A rifle barrel with the "doodling" after the steel marking. This one Roechling steel. Barrel also wears the Z-like L.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showf...e=1#Post352583

I tend to see a similarity between the "doodling" after the Roechling steel marking and the "doodling" after the Krupp steel marking(s) present in the thread, MAYBE (note stress, please) even the "doodling" after the Boehler steel marking, also present in the thread (maybe in a link in the thread). I have no answer.

Peter

[algmule]

Hello

10,75x68. Passed proof September 1925. In Suhl. Note WK in italics. Said to be for Wilhelm Kelber. Remains to ascertain that marking actually was for him.

01-Double-K and WK.jpg

Compare the double-K's in above image with the ones in post No. 2 in this thread.

Peter