Stalking Rifle Markings

[DreyseM65]

I picked up 2 Stalking Rifles over the past few months in 8.15 x 46R, and need help with the markings on one of them.

Will discuss the one with the Vaver sight first.

[DreyseM65]

A few more.

[DreyseM65]

I think I have this one figured out. "H.W." for "Hermann Weiss of Suhl", and "KABA" for "Karl Bauer in Berlin". The US veteran added the Unertl bases, which is ok for me, as I bought it to shoot, and may mount a scope.

[algmule]

Hello

Tj?ta.jpg

Kind regards
Peter

[DreyseM65]

Hello Peter,

Thank you! I was searching for "WWV". Any idea on the barrel maker?

Regards,
Willi

[algmule]

Hello

Willi,
I have nothing to fit BH if that's what it is. If BK, the only one to fit those initials is Berthold Koch, Rohrmacher, Goldlauter but I don't really believe it's him. Other than him, no one for BH/BK in Suhl nor Zella-Mehlis that would fit the time around 1925 nor anyone before or after 1925 either.

Kind regards
Peter

[mike ford]

DreyseM65,
I believe both rifles are configured as Schutzen(?) rifles rather than stalking rifles. This is indicated by the target sights and lack of safety( not required for target rifle). Not all schutzen rifles have the complicated stocks normally associated with them. This is not to say that they can't be used for hunting, they can; indeed, I use a similar one( but bolt action single shot) for hunting too, I just don't load it until I'm on the stand( it would be recommended not to load until ready to shoot). Both rifles were proofed in Zella-Mehlis, therefore were likely made there or nearby. The Venus Waffen Werk one was proofed in Jan.1925 with register no.501. The KABA was proofed in Oct. 1929 with register number 192. The register numbers are what show where the rifles were proofed, Suhl didn't show them.
Mike

[DreyseM65]

Thanks Peter!

Mike, you bring up some interesting points. I had a conversation with a collector and shooter of Schuetzen rifles. These 2 rifles are very lightweight (less than 6 pounds) without heavy long target barrels, and both had German leather "hunting style" slings on them (I took them off but still have them). We discussed the fact that they are not Stalking rifles in the sense that they would be used for hunting, but rather some sort of match (running deer?) rifles. I am not familiar with such matches.

Interesting to note that the "H.W." marked rifle also has the 11gr. ,"Bleigeschosse" marking.

I surely can't imagine them being used in matches dominated by the traditional offhand target Feuerstutze. What do you think?

Thanks for the marking information!

I picked up this (markings below) Schuetzen rifle made by Anschutz, with the "H.W" above. The veteran brought both home, but only fired the latter.

Regards,
Willi

BTW, why is this the only forum I post on which doesn't let you use an Umlaut? I seem to have used them here before.

[DreyseM65]

[mike ford]

DreyseM65,
There were matches similar to "running deer", they were "running boar" matches, and were shot with " Keilerbuechse", which were mostly chambered in 8.15x46R. Since the 8.15x46R was not allowed for hunting high game ( Hochwild ), a Keilerbuechse could not be used to actually hunt any Schwarzwild ( whether boar or piglet). The target type sights on these rifles couldn't be used in the hunting type matches, but they are easily replaceable with sights that were allowed. What I am not sure of is whether a rifle without a safety could be used in hunting type matches, but don't think so. Slings were used on rifles (including hunting rifles) as carrying straps, not to steady the rifles for shooting. The German rifles generally had the front sling swivel attached to the barrel and could ( would likely) change point of impact if used as shooting slings. While the 8.15x46R was( is) not allowed for hunting Hochwild, it was allowed for lowgame (Niederwild ) which included Roe (Reh) deer, when used with the 151grain jacketed bullet loading. Different shooting matches were controlled by different associations, therefore under differing rules. Rifles allowed under one association's rules may not be allowed under other rules. I am absolutely not an expert in this subject, and I hope Axel comes into the conversation to straighten us out. Likewise, I am mostly computer illiterate and didn't know the use of an Umlaut is not allowed. By my own preference, instead of an umlaut I use an extra e ( when I'm not being called to dinner and can take the time to check the spelling). A few years ago, I had directions on how to make my computer type the umlaut ( and other things) displayed close to the computer. Someone else decided to remove them in cleaning and put them somewhere else. It is just easier for me to use the extra e rather than look for the instructions. Maybe someone that understands the new website can answer the question.
Mike

[fuhrmann]

From their configuration, these are typical "hunting match" rifles, or as Mike said, "Keilerb?chsen".
Those matches were shot not only at running boar targets, but also at other standing targets, and often in combination with shotgun targets.
Such shoots existed already before WW I, and are still in place in the form of "DJV Wettkampf".
Today the minimum caliber is .22 Hornet, but many shooters prefer the .222 Remington which is the minimum legal cartridge for roe deer today.
Rules have changed over the years, and as Mike said, there may have been local differences.

I have a similar rifle, later converted to .22 Savage, with a peep sight base and no safety, and I have seen other rifles with safety but no peep sight.
My belief is that all were legal for hunting matches, safety or not, but with the peep sight you could use it in more formal target shooting.

fuhrmann

[algmule]

Hello

Willi,
the following may be somewhat far-fetched so I apologize beforehand. If we assume the the first letter is a stylized V the marking on your rifle might be VK and I found someone who might have been the culprit you're looking for (see images)
Tj?ta5.JPG
Tj?ta.jpg
Tj?ta4.JPG
Tj?ta3.JPG
Address for Viktor Kleinlein was 173 Goldlauter and he was around in 1925. However, I'm not so sure the second letter is a K. It does look like an H but I couldn't find anyone to fit either VH or BH so that's why I started looking for options an ended up with Viktor Kleinlein. I have no idea who he might have worked for or if he had some shop of his own.

EDIT: too many images. Then too few. Then the forum upset me........ Then I deleted the post and re-posted. Now I'm having coffee.

Kind regards
Peter

[Axel E]

I read the letters as BH. May I suggest Bruno Helfricht, Forstgasse 9, Zella - Mehlis, owner of Helfricht & Fischer, a gunmaker that specialised in making Keilerbuechsen. Both O.Will and Kappes & Bauer / Kaba (founded by Karl Kappes and Carl Bauer)were rather dealers than gunmakers. Both companies had most of their guns made by the Z-M guntrade.

[DreyseM65]

Thanks gentlemen! I appreciate the information. Keilerbuechsen they are. Curious as to what a course of fire and target would be like. Perhaps I will add such an event to our quarterly matches.

Just did a quick search and came up with this website (based on the names I am sure you are all familiar with it);

http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/abo...inrich-moritz/

Regards,
Willi

[algmule]

Hello

Axel,
I believe you may be spot on, only I didn't have Bruno Helfricht down as a barrel maker. Maybe Helfricht & Fischer manufactured the rifle and Venus Waffenwerke just peddled it. I have only ever come across Bruno Helfricht with the title Gewehrfabrikant. There was a contemporary to Bruno Helfricht in Zella-Mehlis, a B. Hugo Helfricht. He had at least two patents on pistols and he used Hugo as his name in those patents but advertised as B. Hugo Helfricht. Below is an image which MAY show his Schutz-Marke/Fabrik-Marke (note the stress on may, please). To me it looks like KH, which would be somewhat odd.
Tj?ta7.JPG
As for Helfricht & Fischer. Business was still around in 1941, at Forstgasse 9. In 1937 address is given as number 7. Helfricht & Fischer claimed in 1925 (date of ad confirmed) to have been known for manufacturing of guns for 70 years. That does not fit other dates I've seen. Also: a Traugott Helfricht founded a Luxusgewehrfabrik in 1860. Another Helfricht business, Gebr?der Helfricht, is noted under Konkurse und Zahlungsstockungen in March 1912. Below is part of a Helfricht & Fischer ad from 1925
Tj?ta6.jpg
EDIT: too many words. "Words cost now't, but they don't need wasting for all that".

EDIT: yes, KH it is. Probably for Krausser-Helfricht https://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/Helfricht/helfricht.html

Kind regards
Peter