Immanuel Meffert ?? Cape Gun in 16ga - 9.3x72R - Hubertus ?

[buckstix]

Immanuel Meffert ?? Cape Gun in 16ga - 9.3x72R - Hubertus - EHRHARDT LAUF

I recently acquired a Cape Gun at auction and would like to know more about the maker and the proof marks.

It was described as an "Immanuel Meffert" but I don not see this name anywhere on the gun and don't understand how they came up with that name.
The barrels are both stamped "EHRHARDT LAUF" in a circle around a circle with a diamond - and the watertable is marked "HUBERTUS"


** UPDATE ** Thanks to Mike Ford for an explanation about the guns's maker being Immanuel Meffert based on his trade name HUBERTUS. Thank you Mike - However, I'm still at somewhat of a loss as to the exact caliber of the rifle barrel. (see my last post)


Markings include "Crown/N" and "StMG" for the rifle barrel but I find no Nitro Proof for the shotgun barrel. I would like to know if this is a smokless proofed shotgun barrel, or black powder only?

I also see a "circle 16" and a "16/1" and a "Crown/U" and a "Crown/RJE" ? ? and an "S" and "O.H" ... (hard to show in the pictures).

Here is some information: Made with double triggers, extractors, non-auto safety. Horn capped pistol grip. Buttstock is checkered in point pattern and terminates with lined horn buttplate. Sling swivels. Splinter forend with Deeley release is checkered in point pattern. 27-5/8" Barrels. 14-3/16" LOP Weighs 6 pounds 11 ounces.

As always, I appreciate your help.

[buckstix]

continued ..

[algmule]

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[algmule]

Hello

buckstix,
I know full well your looking for information on your Meffert B?chsflinte. I just wanted to notify you on my pm I sent in December 2019 which apparently did not reach you. Your entitled to disregard the information on Franz Thiele. I shall not bother in future to share. Delete the info on Thiele and continue to be happy. It's nothing to me. It also saves you from saying thank you.

Peter

[buckstix]

Thank you . . ?

[mike ford]

Buckstix,
Indeed, your gun is a Meffert, this is shown by the" HUBERTUS" mark, which was Meffert's trademark. The EHRHARDT seems to be the maker of the steel, from which the barrels are made. The mark you identified as a "Crown RJE", and the "S" and "O.H." are not proof marks. Rather they are touch marks to identify workers or suppliers that had a hand in making the gun. There is no listing of these marks, so they can't be reliably identified now. It is tempting, however, to think the "Crown RJE" might be EARHARDT's touch mark, In 1911, improvements to the proof law of 1891 were made, importantly, including rules for smokeless proof. Prior to the improvements, the smokeless proof load had to follow rules for black powder. This required a load , three times the amount of black powder, that would be an impossible load for the guns to survive. The" improvements" adopted a single proof powder for shotshells in an amount necessary to result in about 12,800 psi of pressure. This was a reasonable pressure for proof. Zella-Mehlis adopted the " improvements" in September of 1911, and the other proof houses ( including Suhl) followed in a few months. It is known that Meffert used the Suhl proof house, and since it has the bore( not groove or bullet) diameter in mm, with case length not shown; this indicates the gun likely passed through the proof house during the confusing change over time in 1911 when procedures and markings were still being established. It is likely, therefore, that it was intended for smokeless powder 65mm shotshells, but did not receive marks that it would have received if it had gone through a few months later. Of course, this is based on uninformed speculation but it would be a useful gun to have. Sorry I couldn't be more positive about the lack of markings.
Mike

[buckstix]

Hello Mike Ford,
As always, thank you for the reply.

I'm having a little difficulty in identifying the exact caliber of the rifle barrel which is Nitro Proofed, indicates a steel jacketed bullet, showing 8.8mm (bore?). Exact measurements of a chamber cast shows a "groove" diameter of about 0.360" diameter. I did find an obscure reference to a cartridge designated as 8x72R(.360) - could this be the cartridge of this rifle barrel, having a bullet dia of .360 - or is the 360 just a reference number? When testing the chamber with a resized brass cartridge of 9.3x72R - it enters the chamber freely.

[sharps4590]

buckstix, is your chamber cast a long, tapered case at 72mm or very close with remaining dimensions that are close to the 8 X 72R case? COTW lists it as possibly a Sauer & Sohn cartridge. In the last 10 years of working/playing with these old firearms I've learned about anything is possible and sometimes you just have to suck it up and make something work, whether you learn what it is or not. Makes it a lot of fun but can also frustrate the daylights out of a fella.

Your pictures are great, wish I could do that.

[buckstix]

Hello sharps4590,
Thanks for the reply.

Chamber cast measures nearly exactly the 9.3x72R case "except" with a .360" diameter bullet - not .366" as one would expect for a 9.3. barrel is stamped "8.8" which would be a .346 bore - adding .007 deep rifling would equal the .360 groove.

[mike ford]

The rifle is chambered for 9.3x72R. The 8.8mm bore( not groove or bullet) is a common diameter. The 360 in the 8x72R(360) designation is for the British 360 case head that several German Cartridges ( including 9.3x72R) are based on. The 9.3x72R cartridge varied quite a bit, both in case dimensions and bullet diameters. The 9.3x72R Normal ( normalizert- standardized) is the version available now and was designed to fit as many old chambers as possible and allow rechambering others without having to reprove them. To allow use in barrels of different diameters, the common bullet is in a form referred to as express bullet that has grooves arranged to effectively leave a narrow driving band that doesn't drive up pressures when used in smaller diameter barrels. RWS bullets for the 9.3x72R are .364", S&B, Norma, and others are often .365" or .366", all across the "driving band mentioned. Just as importantly, bullets for this cartridge are softer and commonly lighter than bullets for 9.3x 74R, 9.3x57/62/64 and similar cartridges, which bullets should not be used in this cartridge. Various 9.3 x72R cartridges are known with bore diameters of .352", .358,.359,.360, .362, ,.364, and. 367". I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out other rifles have bore diameters between these. For those that don't handload, one of the GGCA members, T&G German Gun Imports has S&B ammo in 9.3x72R norm., as well as others.
Mike

[buckstix]

Hello mike ford
Thanks for the reply.

Based on my chamber cast, this is one of those 9.3x72R cartridges with a .360 dia bullet. I'll be shooting it soon.

[mike ford]

buckstix,
Let us know how it works out.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Ha....boy, did I read your post wrong, buckstix!!! I've been working with an 8mm something or other and I guess I had 8mm on my mind and about half read your post.

[Axel E]

The barrels are both stamped "EHRHARDT LAUF" in a circle around a circle with a diamond

That "circled diamond" is the trademark of Rheinmetall, a European defence contractor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall , founded in 1889 by Heinrich Ehrhardt from Zella-Mehlis ( 1840 - 1928), a German inventor, industrialist and manager with 128 German patents to his name, ranging from a corkscrew to railway siege artillery. His most important invenntions were for forming steel into seamless tubes of all dimensions. During the Boer War the British bought many Quick firing 15-pounder "Ehrhard" field guns from Rheinmetall. In 1901 Ehrhard bought up the bankrupt Dreyse factory. Today both the US M1 Abrams and the German Leopard 2 main battle tanks use the Rheinmetall RH-120 smoothbore tank gun.