Drilling Proof Marks--Possible Maker's Mark?

[MichaelZWilliamson]

I've identified most of the marks on this, but I'd like confirmation, and help with one mark.

Maker is Robert Faller, who was only in business from 1912-1915 in Freiburg. He bought the shop from another outfitter/maker, and then someone else took over, but I can't track down if he sold it or deceased. He was listed as a gunsmith but was likely also an outfitter. I've only located two other of his guns anywhere online. One sold through a Swedish auction house, one here in the US.

16 gauge X 2.75" over 8X58R Sauer. Unusual, but I've gauged it. Wall thicknesses are .035-040 on the shotgun tubes, which are nitro proofed. It handles and shoots very well.

I can't identify the crown over what looks like a monogrammed TH at the front of the action. This also appears on the fore end metal.

Any info appreciated.

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[mike ford]

Mr. Williamsom , That mark is not a German proof mark, as best I can see. I magnified it to 300% and still could not make it out. It would be helpful if you could post photos of the marks on the bottom of the barrels, and the mark on the forearm that you mentioned. It is likely that Robert Faller marketed the drilling rather than making it; although it's possible he finished parts bought from a manufacturer selling to "the trade". More than likely it was chambered for 65mm( 2 1/2- 2 9/16") shells and if it is now 2 3/4" it has been rechambered. You can tell if it was originally 65mm, if there is a 16 in a circle and no "70" next to it, it was originally 65mm. While there is some controversy about this, there are a lot of drillings in service that have been rechambered, both here and in Germany. If it was rechambered in Germany, it should have new proof marks ( I actually have one so marked). Maybe someone else recognizes that mark and explains it. I await the additional photos.
Mike

[MichaelZWilliamson]

I didn't recognize it as a proof mark, either. I was wondering what it might be instead. Here are pictures of it and of the barrel proofs, as best I can get them. I can try for some other angles if these are not clear enough. There is no indication the chambers were reamed. The metal is consistent through. Neither visual inspection nor my wall thickness gauge suggest any chamber work.


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[MichaelZWilliamson]

A good photo of the action.

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[algmule]

Hello

Kr?ntStreckgubbe.JPG

Kind regards
Peter

[mike ford]

I think the mark is for the maker, as it is not a proof mark. Guns made for "the trade" were often not clearly marked as to the maker, so the marketer could what ever name suited their business interest. Often they were marked with a logo that the "trade" may know, but not always the end user. Your drilling was proofed in Suhl , so it was likely made there or nearby. I noted that the proofs were not dated. This means it was made between about 1912 when they started using mm for bore( not groove or bullet) diameter and about 1922 when Suhl started dating the proof marks. It was nitro proofed for a 13 gram( if I read the number correctly) Steel jacketed bullet. Both barrels are choked but the amount of constriction is not shown ( usually pretty tight). The selector is a little unusual and maybe someone will recognize the maker based on that. It seems to have the original scope, which is unusual, assuming it is a "war trophy" which seldom still had the scope. Enjoy it, I think you can be proud to have it. Custom made rifle ammo is pretty expensive and if you want to handload for it, there are several here that will advise and help in that exercise.
Mike

[MichaelZWilliamson]

I have ammo from Reed's. It's about a 13 step process from .303 Brit cases. Left choke improved modified, right choke open.

I came up with 1912. That seems to be the last year for that rifle proof style, the first year for that nitro proof for shotguns, and fits with the 1912-1915 dates for the business (I have scans from a local business guide.) Those and the barrels say "Freiburg," but of course, it could have been made elsewhere and assembled. Barrel and action have different serial numbers.

The Zeiss optic does appear to be original, but the installation involved disabling the rear sight elevator.

And we agree no one knows what that mark is I was hoping it would offer more info.

I had the checkering touched up, and had to replace the cartridge trap. I had a sling made. I fitted the case and fabricated a label based on others from the location and era.

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[MichaelZWilliamson]

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[algmule]

Hello

Mike [Ford],
sorry, but unless I'm missing something there's no crown W on the right side. I will have to go with Mr. Williamson on the right tube.
CrownW.JPG
What's here?
Barrelmarkings.JPG

Kind regards
Peter

[mike ford]

Peter,
I didn't have the photo you show above, I seemed to have misread the mark above the U as a W in the other view.

Mike( Williamson)
Reeds is known to make good ammo and since they have to satisfy a lot of people they go through labor intensive swaging operations to make perfectly dimensioned cases from 303 Brit.( 30-40Krag sometimes also used). I find it much easier and perfectly satisfactory for handloaders( not selling to the public) to make 6.5x58R S&S, 8x58R S&S, and 8x57R/360 cases from original length 38-55 (2.125-2,130") cases. They are a little smaller head diameter, a little shorter, and rims must be thinned, but they fireform to fit the chamber and the bullet can be loaded "out" for the same overall length. There is a very significant difference in price, if you shoot much. Unless I'm wrong ( I often am) 1912 was closer to the first year for that style rifle proof which went to the 1939 law.
Mike

[algmule]

Hello

"Robert Faller (Steinbrenner George vorm. Th. Alberti, B?chsenmacherei, Jagdsport- und Fischereiartikel, Eisenbahnstra?e 4.)" [1911]

I may remember incorrectly but I would have thought that Steinbrenner's given name was Ed[uard/ward]. If my info is correct Faller was not around in Freiburg im Breisgau in 1905. I've yet to find when he started out his business.

Also: Mike, I realize there may have been no standard, but what is the rim thickness on 8x58R Sauer? Would it be possible to form brass from 360 Nitro 2 1/4? Would 9,3x82R be another option?
https://www.henrykrank.com/reloading...ass-cases.html
you will to have scroll, and wait while the page loads. Hope the link works. Computers are beyond me.

Kind regards
Peter

[Axel E]

Quote:
"I can't identify the crown over what looks like a monogrammed TH at the front of the action.
The selector is a little unusual and maybe someone will recognize the maker based on that."

Made for retailer Faller by Thieme & Schlegelmilch, Steinweg 40, Suhl.

[MichaelZWilliamson]

Quote:
"I can't identify the crown over what looks like a monogrammed TH at the front of the action.
The selector is a little unusual and maybe someone will recognize the maker based on that."

Made for retailer Faller by Thieme & Schlegelmilch, Steinweg 40, Suhl.

Awesome. Thank you very much for that info.

Found more info on them here: http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/abo...s-dealers-p-t/

[MichaelZWilliamson]

Hello


I may remember incorrectly but I would have thought that Steinbrenner's given name was Ed[uard/ward]. If my info is correct Faller was not around in Freiburg im Breisgau in 1905. I've yet to find when he started out his business.
Kind regards
Peter

Correct, 1912-1915 per the trade book scans I have. I'll upload and post that. RobertFallerBoughtShop1910-12.jpg

No listing of him in 1916 or 1920 that we could find.

[MichaelZWilliamson]

And of course, an open choke might previously have been tighter and reamed.

If these chambers were lengthened, someone did an amazingly precise job.

Unless I'm wrong ( I often am) 1912 was closer to the first year for that style rifle proof which went to the 1939 law

I may also be mistaken, which is why I'm here. I was referencing marks here, which seems to indicate that was the first year. It matches other sources, but they may all be copying each other. http://www.shotguns.se/html/germany_1890-1945.html