Sauer Drilling Caliber Identification

[Omid]

Hello Dear GGCA Members!

This is my first post in this forum. I am reaching out to you gentlemen to help me identify the rifle caliber on an Old (Pre WWII) J P Sauer and Son drilling. The gun in question has two shotgun barrels (12 GA) and a rifle barrel. The seller claims that the rifle barrel is 9.3X74R but I want to make sure. The marking on the rifle barrel says "8.9 mm" and then there are three digits 7 8 3. These digits don't seem to be indicating cartridge length:




Now, is 8.9 is the bore dimeter for 9.3x74R? What are the ways - other than casting the chaber- to find out the exact caliber?

The drilling is a side lock action with a triger gaurd made of horn. It has a Hensoldt 4x scope with German three-post reticle in claw mounts. It also has open sights, both a folding notch on the barrel and a folding peep sigth which coms out from the middle of the tang safty.

Thanks for your help.
-Omid

http://www.omidjahromi.com

[ellenbr]

There has been some repair effort throughout as noted by the "Crown" over "R" so I would want to do a chamber cast due to the variations in the 9.3mm cartridge possibilities.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Also if the serial number is in the 73-74k range, it would have been issued a serial number in the late 1890s pre-dating the 9.3X74R and also the 8,9mm plug gauge stamp. So if the chamber was altered, it was something else before it was whatever chamber state it is in now. Again I would suggest a chamber cast.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

[sharps4590]

Do a chamber cast. There are several 9.3's and as Raimey noted, there is no way to know what it is now, if it was rechambered. I don't believe one can be too careful in determining what these fine old drillings are chambered to.

[mike ford]

Omid,
Your drilling could very well be 9.3x72R Sauer&Sohn. This cartridge is very similar to the 9.3x74R,but different. I happen to have a Sauer sxs combination gun(BF) that also shows the 8.9mm caliber marking and is in 9.3x72R S&S.There is an upcomming article about this gun(publication date not set yet). It will chamber 9.3x74R, but this cartridge can cause problems, as described in the article. When I discovered the real chambering, the problem was solved by shortening 9,3x74R cases and loading them in 9.3x74R dies. Axel reported one he knew of that had also been used with incorrect ammo. The solution his friend chose was to have it rechambered to 9.3x74R and reproofed. The way to determine the actual chambering is with a chamber cast, as noted above. The gun seems to show a "repair" proof on both the rifle barrel and a shotgun barrel. This could indicate it has been rechambered, but it could be for some other reason, since the caliber was not restamped.
Mike

[Omid]

Thank you very much for your kind replies. I do like drillings very much (they just look cool!). This gun has been around in a gun shop near me for more than a year. They recently reduced its price to about 3K (from an original 5k) and that triggered my interest. I have a few rifles and shotguns (see picture) but I like to have a classic driling too. I know we don't have much use for them here in North America but as I said above I like them and I see myself buying one someday.

Could someone please explain to me what's the real use of a drilling? Is it traditionally used for small game only? If so, then may be one with a small rifle caliber is preferable (?)

[mike ford]

Omid,
The real use for a drilling here is the same as in Germany-hunting. Unless I'm trying to "blood" a new gun,or hunt with one I haven't used for a while, I usually hunt deer with one of my drillings. I have an einstecklauf(insert barrel) in them, 22mag in one and 22lr in another. Then I have a medium caliber rifle,a small caliber rifle, and a 16ga shotgun; all in one gun. I usually just take deer with this combination, but because I had the other barrels avaliable, I have also taken Fox,Hare, Racoon,Squirrel,Duck,etc. that I otherwise would have missed out on.Almost all of my German hunter friends had a drilling, because it was the proper gun to have,even if they usually hunted with a bolt rifle and double shotgun. Except that it is 12ga.(I am a 16ga man) your drilling is pretty well ready to go like it is. A lot of drillings in the US don't have scopes, but yours does. A scope is necessary, in my opinion, and an einstecklauf is just nice to have.
Mike

[Omid]

Hello Mike,

Thank you very much for your comments. So basically you are using your drilling for all kind of game all at the same time. I was on the impression that the original drilling concept was for hunting smal game and/or birds. You would use your shotgun barrel for running rabits and flying birsds and you would use the rifle for longer distance shots at a stationary fox or a sitting bird.

Another thing I like about this particular drilling is that it has long barrels (26 3/4"). I have noticed that drillings generally have short 24" inch barrels which makes them look chubby. This one looks thin and slender

[mike ford]

Omid,
There were (and are) drillings made with barrels of different lengths. I have owned,handled,or seen drillings with barrels from 22"-30"(approx.).For my own use,I prefer 60 cm to no more than 65cm( my favorite is 60 cm). As a general rule, the older drillings had longer barrels and the newer ones shorter barrels. Of course this is not a firm rule, old drillings could be had with short barrels and long barrels can be ordered now. I don't worry about them looking chubby, I worry about how they handle."Form follows function". I do understand that it takes longer barrels on a 12ga than on a 16ga, to look slender( I told you I'm a 16ga man).
The rifle barrel could be used on a stationary fox or bird, but was usually intended for hoofed game ( some were made with a 22 rimfire or 5.6R vierling barrel,usually in the top rib). The einstecklauf I mentioned above, answered the need for a small caliber rifle. A vierling or bockdrilling did also, but were (are) much less common.
Mike

[Büchsemann]

Omid,

The world of drillings (any combination of three barrels) starts from the smallest SXS shotgun combination with a rifle barrel as small as a .22LR parked in the conventional fashion below the SXS shot tubes to a "schienen" (ribbed) gun with the rifle barrel in the top rib or alongside a set of O/U shot tubes. On the upper end there are the double rifle drillings, configured many ways but most often with SXS rifle barrels above a single shot tube, and even drillings with three large bore rifle barrels. The latter two being one heck of a lot of fire power whether two large bore rifle barrels and a shot tube loaded with a slug round or the three large bore rifle barrels. One certainly doesn't want to be lacking in such fire power when hunting dangerous game on any continent. If you want to learn more about drillings go onto the GGCA home web page, find "Contact Us", and ask if you can buy a copy of one of our more recent club magazines that featured drillings. It says a bunch for sure. The GGCA Bookstore offers some books on the subject as well.

As to the gun that you're looking at I agree with the others that you really should get a chamber cast as it's not a good idea to guess. If the seller is serious about selling I would hope that he would be willing to have a cast poured so he knew exactly what he had. It would be a good idea for him to know for sure before selling the gun unless he’s thinking he can avoid possible liability issues with some creative writing and a signature (yours); not always a given.

Regards,

Mark

[Jim Cate]

A chamber cast is definitely needed. In the 1976 Gun Digest there was included an excellent article on the 9.3 cartridges. I will list those mentioned: 9.3x72R Sauer & Sohn; 9.3x57 Norma; 9.3x62 DWM; 9.3x62 RWS; 9.3x64 DWM; 9.2x72R Norma; 9.3x74R DWM; 9.3x74R Norma....with all having different grain bullets and designs. Some of these old cartridges were quite good and very accurate without a great deal of recoil. I'm sure there are more calibers that were not mentioned. So have the 'cast' done and see what you have. Raimey is quite correct in that this old Sauer (73048 serial number) would have been made long before the 9.3x74R became a reality. Best regards, Jim Cate

[Omid]

Thank you very much Jim, Mark and Mike. Your comments are very helpful and I am learning a lot about drilings already! Here are some more pictures of this particular Sauer. I looked somewhere online and a gun like this was called a Sauer Model 26. I am not sure if this is correct or not. The pictures are taken using my mobile phone so the quality is not the best. I will go back to the seller and ask about the possibilty of a chamber cast.

P. S. Regarding reference material, I remember Safari Press had a book on J P Sauer rifles but they are sold out. What are other books on Sauer hunting rifles and drilings?

[Jim Cate]

It is a Model 25 Sauer Drilling, and from my serial number data I would say it was made in the 1908 period. There were a lot of Sauer guns made between 1900 and the end of World War I. Many of these serial numbers are not sequential (following each other), so it can be confusing. I have another Drilling, 72809, noted in the database that is close to yours. It is a 12 gauge with 8x57R rifle caliber. Thanks for the photos, such as they are. Regards, Jim

[Omid]

Thanks for your detailed reply Jim! It is very interesting to know that the gun was made in 1908!! I was thinking may be about 1920-1940. I will talk with the seller regarding chamber casting.

PS. I just relaized you have written a book about J P Sauer. This is impressive!

[Omid]

I went to the shop today to discuss the possibility of a chamber cast but the person in charge of this drilling was not available. So I just took a few more pictures by my mobile phone. I also noticed that the forend wood has been repaired (a narrow crack) and also that some of the screws on the gun have been opened before. Other than these minor things it looks fine.

Here are the new pictures: