Mystery Hoffer-Frey Mauser

[iskra]

My Mystery Mauser
What it is: Suhl mauser vintage 1912. Pix below (more available).
Oberndorf action SN dating to 1912. German proof style exhibited terminated in 1912. Receiver underside with two serial numbers. 54728, Oberndorf/all action parts. 23923/receiver underside, stock channel & barrel exterior. “Krupp Stahl” marked, semi-octagon ribbed barrel w/ integral front sight ramp. Barrel underside with “7.7” (generic 8mm) & proofs. Small stylized indiscrete “WK”, coming back to exact exemplar for “Wilhelm Kälber”, (aka: Kaelber), Suhl riflemaker. Metal adornment – tasteful ‘engraving-light’. Stock, typical pre WWI styling w/barrel cross-pinned forend.
What its not. Non-conforming Lyman 48 second type receiver sight. (Vintage early twenties to latter forties, specimen reflecting earliest style knobs.) Incongruous “Fajen” marked (US stock manufacturer) buttplate. Dovetail remnant of presumed original rear barrel sight, likely altered to accommodate Lyman. Stock refinished to gloss & presumably sanded.
What's unknown. Involving barrel nomenclature in particularly neat script. “Otto Buhl Strassburg”, era correct and as many vendors, beyond unknown. “V.D.R.M. A. Hoffer-Frey”. Extensive Internet research, expected results; nothing. VDRM apparent abbreviation with expectations to determine meaning. Great Internet search yielding… Nothing.
Question posed here/assist requested: ‘No bull’ information regarding “Buhl”. Of greatest interest, satisfying curiosity concerning “A. Hoffer-Frey” if reasonably possible. Within priority to identifying meaning of VDRM. Possible clue (or not), ‘DR’ – “Deutsches Reich”.
Any help, clues, speculation happily accepted!
Super Thanks!
John

[ellenbr]

Typically in business when some purchases a business that did not found a business, they want to continue business as usual on the coattails or under the current name and terms like formerly/previously & successor are used. Here VORM is more than likely VORMALS or FORMERLY. Buhl was active around WWI and may have married into the Hoffer family or purchased the business in the Alsace area of France that bounced back & forth between France & Germany, being under German control from the Franco - Prussian conflict till after WWI. Right off, I know not the term Frey but that really doesn't mean much.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Maybe on 2nd thought the last name of the previous owner was Hoffer-Frey?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[iskra]

Typically in business when some purchases a business that did not found a business, they want to continue business as usual on the coattails or under the current name and terms like formerly/previously & successor are used. Here VORM is more than likely VORMALS or FORMERLY. Buhl was active around WWI and may have married into the Hoffer family or purchased the business in the Alsace area of France that bounced back & forth between France & Germany, being under German control from the Franco - Prussian conflict till after WWI. Right off, I know not the term Frey but that really doesn't mean much.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thanks and interesting. But the initials were V.D.R.M. as in Delta. Not Oscar! Somehow too, it would be a strange place and prominence for "formerly" or "successor to..." I don't think that works anyway. But frankly, so far anyone's guess is as good as another's! Please do keep on guessing!

Best!
John

[fuhrmann]

I´ll second Raimey!
Note it is not "V.D.R.M" as initials (large letters) but "vdrm." or "vorm." (smallers letters)

Makes sense to me:
Otto Buhl, Strassburg / vorm. A. Hoffer-Frey

[ellenbr]

I'll further support Mike & it could well be vdrm but more than likely the artisan who applied the adornment / tap-tap-tap & the letters may not have had German as his(her) primary language. Either way, Victor - Oscar - Romeo - Mike as >>vdrm<< or >>vorm<< is VORMALS......


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

You might chase Arquebusier A. Hoffer - Frey à Straßburg - Alsace-Lorraine, Arquebusier A. Hoffer - Frey à Strasbourg or some variant & find the former firearms merchant?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[mike ford]

As fuhrmann said the V.D.R.M. are small letters, but they are in upper case, and there are "periods" between the letters. I would lean toward " Vorlaeufer Deutsch Reich Muster" which would be similar to "Patent Pending". I agree, however, " Hoffer-Frey" is likely a hyphenated family name. Is there someone in the discussion that has German as his first language, and can offer an opinion?
Mike

[Axel E]

I´ll second Raimey!
Note it is not "V.D.R.M" as initials (large letters) but "vdrm." or "vorm." (smallers letters)

Makes sense to me:
Otto Buhl, Strassburg / vorm. A. Hoffer-Frey

Me too! German is the first language of both fuhrmann and me. I don't see real "periods" between the letters, just one behind the m. I take the somewhat D -shaped o as a slight slipping of the engraving tool. vdrm makes no sense at all. I've never seen something as "vorläufiges Deutsches Reichs Muster", as this is impossible wording. A DRGM = Deutsches Reichs - Gebrauchsmuster was never provisional or pending, as it became valid with the day of application. "Vorläufer" is impossible too, as there was no predecessor. I read the inscription as Otto Buhl, Strassburg / vormals A.Hoffer-Frey. Such addresses, mentioning a known predecessor, are not rare at all.
BTW, Otto Buhl is mentioned in 1910 and 1916 at then Schlossergasse 12, Strassburg. I found no Hoffer-Frey, but there were Freys in Frankfurt on Oder and Schwedt on Oder. After 1871 many Prussians moved to the German Reichsland Elsass. They were all expelled when the Alsace became French again in 1918.

[ellenbr]

For once Axel E. & I agree so I'm having a Billions $ lottery ticket purchased. I too think guessing Patent Pending is mixing in time as that advertising didn't arrive on the scene in the American market till much later. I don't think those are dots but alignment marks for the letters for an non-speaking German(or German as a 2nd language) artisan to apply the letters. Notice the difference in the divots around the letters vs the DOTS between the words / phrases.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[Axel E]

As I wrote, D.R.G.M.s were never "pending", as they became valid immediately upon application. Deutsche Reichs –Patente, D.R.P.s on the other hand were pending from application to issue. The German words for this situaton were "DRP angemeldet" = applied for. In short, this was usually marked as "DRP angem." or even "D.R.P.a." like on this very early, Reichswerke Erfurt made, Remo II shotgun, serial number 45:

[ellenbr]

"DRP angemeldet" = applied for. In short, this was usually marked as "DRP angem." or even "D.R.P.a."

Now that is something you can stick in your back pocket to pull out @ some point.

Peter, have you seen such on other REMOs?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[algmule]

Hello

Remo 1: DRP on Meffert marked conversions and DRPA (note upper case a) on a Remo 1, no Meffert or RwE markings.
Remo II: DRPa on RwE marked conversions and on one Meffert marked (also RwE) conversion. DRP on two (also RwE) Remo II conversions. It has been suggested that the a. was ground off on the DRP's.

Topic: I read it VORM in upper case letters
xxx.JPG
As for Buhl I have Zilch. Has anyone looked for Hoffer-Frey in Kehl am Rhein? A VDRM marking is unknown to me but I haven't seen all guns. I'm not saying it isn't a French marking but I doubt it.

Patents: application date is one thing. Publication date another. In between the two there was approval date. It could very well have been that the publication date and the approval date more or less coincided. Axel was kind enough to send me a Gebrüder Rempt ad that was earlier than the publication date on the Remo shottie where the gun was given as DRP. Admittedly only by a few days but I'm sure there are other instances where there's a longer period between approval and publication. Patents were retroactively valid from date of application.

EDIT but no yellow man: if a shotgun conversion with DRP angem. appeared I would be very pleased as that would be something I haven't seen before. Remember I'm the resident shotgun conversion fanatic.

Kind regards
Peter

[mike ford]

I'm not arguing for "Vorlaeufer", it was only a guess anyway. But "patent pending" , in US, was sometimes used when there was no patent, as a "bluff" to avoid copies.
Mike

[Axel E]

The Rempt brothers patent DRP Nr. 328446 for the Remo shotgun was angemelded = applied for on September 20, 1919 and ausgegeben = issued more than a year later, on October 28, 1920. So Remo shotguns with DRPa were made in between. I take the short-lived Reichswerke Erfurt, the renamed Königliche Gewehrfabrik, as the original maker of the Remo shotguns.