Help with my Drillinge

[Thomasg]

Hello everyone
Please examine the pictures I have attached and tell me if anyone recognizes the maker of this nice old Drillinge. What I have learned so far is that it was probably the 315th gun proofed at the Zella-Mehlis proof house in January of 1912 (thank you to Jon Spencer). This is a 16ga side by side over a 9.3x72R.
I have examined every square centimeter of this firearm and find no makers mark, not even on the rib. So far I have speculated that the maker may have been Burgsmuller H. & Sohne as I have found no other engraving pattern or style to date that comes close to what I have here.
If anyone has a similar firearm or experience with one like this please contribute.
Thank you very much,
Sincerely
Tom

[mike ford]

Thomasg,
Your gun was likely made "for the trade" and Burgsmuller was one of the companies that was in this type of business. Therefore, it more likely that it was marketed by Burgsmuller than made by them. Burgsmuller was known to mark, at least, some of the guns they sold; so I don't know if they even marketed this one. Since you or Tom had some indication that Burgsmuller carried this gun, I don't have any reason to argue . The "Nitro" being written in script, the ledger number( 315) and the intertwined Z-M all show that your assessment that it was proofed in Zella- Mehlis is correct, and it is dated as you reported. The crown S is the proof mark for Shot, crown W shows that barrel was choked, but the constriction is not shown. The crown U is the mark for a View Proof, which is a detailed inspection, after definitive proof, using provisional proof charge( see 2 eagle stamps). The 16 in a circle means it has 65mm( 2 1/2- 2 9/16") 16 ga. chambers. The 16/1 is the bore diameter( also in gauge measurement) ahead of the chamber. This equates to 16.99mm. The crown G is the proof for using a single projectile( bullet). I'm guessing you have verified the 9.3x72R chambering, but the 8,7 does not positively show it. The 8,7 is the bore( not groove or bullet) diameter, as measured by the proof house, with "pin gages". Since it was proofed in early 1912, the case length was not shown. The same stamp would have been used for several other nominal cartridges. Since it was proofed in Zella- Mehlis, it was likely made there or near there. There is an M with what looks like a different "crown" and a K stamped on the rifle barrel. These are likely the marks of either the actual makers of the rifle barrel or the workman that bundled them together. There were several workmen in the area whose name would fit the "K". A known barrel maker in the area was Max Moeller, who also made drillings from time to time. He most often used two Ms in his stamp and in my limited experience I have never seen the crown over M. It would be tempting to say it was one of the Merkels, but they operated in Suhl and their work most often carries Suhl proof marks. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful, but if Axel comes into the discussion, he could very well know who used the crown over M as a touchmark.
Mike

[Thomasg]

Hello Mike, I was limited to how many pics I could post in the first inquiry. The shotgun barrels are marked "Prima Gewehrlauf Stahl"

[Thomasg]

Hello, another question that comes to mind is if my Drillinge was proofed at the Zella-Mehlis proof house then does this help in any way to eliminate gun makers from the Suhl region and narrow the list on possible makers?

[mike ford]

Thomasg,
Yes, as a general rule Suhl makers used the Suhl proof house, but this was not required by law or rule. The Suhl craftsmen considered themselves superior to those in Zella-Mehlis. I think this came about before the different States/Principalities were brought together under one government and Suhl being in Prussia "looked down their nose" at their neighbors in Zella-Mehlis, notwithstanding some very well known companies being from there. Suhl makers often bought parts, etc. from Zella-Mehlis, and vice versa. The more "economy" grade guns seem to have their beginning in Zella-Mehlis, especially the common small frame, single locking lug, underlever break open single shot rifle barreled actions. Even if a Suhl maker bought these and finished them out, they would not likely have them proofed somewhere else than Suhl. Many of the small frame, underlever drillings also started there, but if finished in Suhl would likely be proofed there as well. Unless there is some House Brand or model name identifiable to some particular maker, there is no way to say, for sure, who made it. The stamp on the barrel means the barrel is made from "Premier Rifle Barrel Steel".
Mike

[Thomasg]

Mike, Thank you very much for taking the time to look at this and share your knowledge with me.
Best Regards,
Tom

[algmule]

Tom,
for some time now I've been looking for information on crown M. I'm not saying that the following is relevant to the crown M that is on your Drilling but here's what I found in a list of proof marks from 1913: in that list there's a crown M for Mantelgeschoss listed. In the list there's no difference between the crowns over S, W, G, B, R, U and the crown over M. I know it's not much but this what was I was able to find on crown M.

I wouldn't know but I like to think that 9,3x72R speaks against the crown M on your Drilling being for Mantelgeschoss. As to whom manufactured your Drilling, I wouldn't know either.

EDIT: the thing has two crown G's
Tom.JPG
Kind regards
Peter

[Thomasg]

algmule, Thank you,
Best,
Tom

[mike ford]

Peter,
I'm interested in the 1913 list you mentioned. Is it a German list or some other country? Like you, I noticed the crown over the "M" is an entirely different font. The Germans addressed the jacketed bullet question with the proof/service load on the barrel by showing whether it was intended for copper jacket, steel jacket, or lead bullet. Given this and the different font, I wonder if the gun passed through some country that generally accepted German proof but required a different mark for jacketed bullets. Of course, this is only conjecture. Maybe Axel will come into the discussion and solve the question.
Mike

[algmule]

Mike,

it's from a German list of proof marks. I'm still digging.

EDIT: if the two crown G's are from different time periods it may explain the font.

Kind regards
Peter

[mike ford]

Peter,
I looked at all the photos and could not find a photo showing the duty load. The changes due to the 1911 improvements included stopping the showing of the proof load and substituting the duty load. Like other changes of procedures it is possible there was confusion until final rules were coordinated with all proof houses. Because of the lack of a duty load and a proof date(1912) close to the 1911 improvements, I am now more agreeable to the mark being for a jacketed bullet after all. Both jacketed and lead bullets would have been used during this time period.
Mike