Question "Miller & Val. Greiss" Double Rifle - why no proof marks - 10x47r caliber ?

[buckstix]

Hello all,

I just purchased another Miller & Val. Greiss Double rifle. Based on a chamber cast, I think its 10x47R caliber. This would be a strange caliber for a Double Rifle. ? ?

There are no proof marks anywhere to be found. There is no caliber marking either. Only marks are "Miller & Val. Greiss / Munchen" on each lock and an "LS" on the bottom of one the left barrel.

Questions: -

Why no proof marks?
Any idea what the "LS" stamp is?
What would be the corredt bullet weight for 10x47R? ( I need this info to try to load cartridges to see if the rifle is still in regulation )

Here are the specs:

Swing-Lever Double Hammer Double Rifle - Non-Rebounding Hammers - Engraved Receiver & Back-Action Side Locks - Barrels marked "LS" "12762" - Locks marked "Miller & Val Greiss / Munchen" - Gold Inlaid Decorative Breech Bands - 6 lbs 13 oz - 13-3/8" LOP - 24-13/16" Barrels - 1 Standing 1 Folding Leaf Rear Site + Pop-up Tang Site - Set Triggers - Horn Swing-Lever - Spur Trigger Guard w/ Pierced & Scrolled Dark Horn Finger Rest - Steel Engraved Trap Butt Plate - Sling Swivels

thanks

[Axel E]

Questions:
Why no proof marks?

In Germany, proof became mandatory on April 1, 1893 only. Guns then on maker's or dealer's shelves, ready for sale, got the crown/V Vorratszeichen, a proof exempttion mark. As this rifle shows neither, it was made and sold before 1893.

Any idea what the "LS" stamp is?

The initials of the barrel maker. Not to identify positively, as there were too many with names fitting LS. F.I. Louis Suchard, Ludwig Schilling, L.Störmer, L. Schlegelmilch and several others. Your choice!

What would be the corredt bullet weight for 10x47R? ( I need this info to try to load cartridges to see if the rifle is still in regulation )

Nothing was standardized before 1909. At those blackpowder – lead bullet times, any gunsmith, before turning the sign on his door to "open", designed his own rifle cartridge and load, just enough different from the one of his competitor next door to prevent interchangeability. They also made their own bullet moulds. So which 10x47 R? Dixon lists three 10x47R case shapes, + a 10.25x47R and three 10.5x47R. Later catalgs offered factory swaged lead bullets in the 10.01 to 10.57 mm range in many different shapes and weights, ranging from 11.5 g = 177 gr to 20.0 g = 308 gr , but most were in the 230 – 250 gr range. As there was no standard bullet shape, diameter or weight, you will have to experiment.

[mike ford]

Buckstix,
I suggest you buy a 9.5x47R case( I think Graf's sells single Bertram cases) and fireform it with a fireforming load using a filler instead of a bullet. With this fireformed case and "slugging" the bore, you and Axel may be able to "pick out" the particular version of 10x47R you have. If you can find a 10mm or 38-40 bullet, see if it will fit into the fireformed case. This will help you decide if the nominal caliber is something other than 10x47R ( such as one of the others cited by Axel), or if you will need a heeled bullet or an undersized one and depend on "upset" to fill the grooves. You will still have to experiment, as Axel suggested, but more information makes it easier.
Mike

[buckstix]

Hello Axel E

Thanks for the reply. As always, I appreciate your knowledge.

Hello mike ford,

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I ordered 9.5x47R brass yesterday. I also made the chamber cast, shown below. Its hard to measure 7-groove rifling, but I,m guessing .400 - .405 pure lead bullets will work.

[mike ford]

Buckstix,
I was interested in your rifle, because I am currently working on loads for a Val. Kern chambered ( and marked) for 10x42 R, which is a Miller &Val Greiss cartridge ( the only one based on the MB case). My rifle( combination gun) has the bullet and powder weight stamped on the barrel. When I get a chance to hobble down to my basement, I will write this info down and inform you. As I remember the bullet is in the neighborhood of 250 grains. I cobbled together some cases from 45-70 cases with the rims modified to MB profile and fireformed a few. I load for 38-40, but one of those bullets( .401") will not enter the case. The barrel "slugged" something less than .400"( info also in basement). I'm sure the two rifles are not chambered for the same cartridge, only similar ones. Old chambers are often cut with long chambers, that seem to be for a longer cartridge, but a case as long as your chamber cast will not come close to fitting into my chamber( I had to trim to only a little over 42mm). Axel will, no doubt, recognize which version of 10x47R yours is chambered for, based on neck profile. Since I don't have to worry about regulation, I will more than likely end up sizing either 38-40, 10mm pistol, or 40-60 Win bullets, all of which lighter than the marked weight. There is a small "bugger" in the barrel and leading make require me to size jacketed 10 mm bullets.
Mike

[buckstix]

Hello mike ford,

Thanks for the reply.

I received the 9.5x47R brass cases and opened up the necks to accept a half-jacket .410 dia 210g 41 cal pistol bullet. I loaded them with 22g AA5744 powder with Winchester large rifle primers. I fired them at 50 feet on our indoor range because it was too cold to shoot outside. Although the bullets were somewhat "over-size" they seemed to shoot pretty good. I didn't measure the velocity, but based on the rifle's recoil it seemed reasonable. I'm guessing somewhere around 1200 fps. Each barrel shot into 1" groups about 2-1/4" apart - having crossed. Although the bullets were crossing, this would imply about a 6" group at 50 yards. I saved 2 cartridges to measure the velocity at our 50 yard outdoor range on a day when the weather gets above freezing. Although there was quite a bit of un-burned powder left in the barrels, the fired cases were completely fire-formed to the chamber with the shoulders pushing forward and the necks expanding. The expanded necks measured approx. .449" outside diameter. Given the .012" brass thickness at the neck, this would imply a bullet of .425" diameter. ?? I've ordered some .426" diameter 250g pure lead bullets and will proceed to load these with the same charge. Correction: I think these bullets will be too large, so I cancelled the order - see my next post ... I'm hoping heavier bullet will un-cross. So far I'm pretty happy with this little double.

[sharps4590]

Nice rifle!!! Your groups beat the daylights out of my first double rifle endeavor 20+ years ago!!! Well done!

[mike ford]

buckstix,
The results of your fireforming indicate the nominal caliber is likely not 10x47R after all. Your finding of the possibility of a .425" bullet speaks more to 10.75x47R, instead. The 10.75x47R listed by Dixon is shown as a target cartridge, while your rifle is obviously a hunting rifle. While you could hunt with a target cartridge( see 8.15x46R), this and the propensity of black powder cartridge designers to use undersized bullets leads me to believe the nominal caliber would have likely been 10.5 x47R( the Utendoerffer "b" type was also known as 10.5x47R Mauser, a name more in keeping with a hunting rifle). Regardless of the name of the cartridge, I believe your inclination to use a larger diameter bullet( to fit the barrel) is the correct one. I agree that the heavier bullet, together with possible adjustments in powder charge, can result in a load that shoots both barrels together, without crossing. If you don't have to depend on bullet "upset", you could use a harder alloy. Larger diameter bullets should also reduce the amount of unburned powder. Common 44 Spec/Mag SWC bullets properly sized, should work well for hunting. I believe you have your project well "in hand", and frankly I am little jealous. I am curious what Axel thinks about the 10x47R vs 10.5x47R vs 10.75 R question for nominal caliber question.
Mike

[buckstix]

Hello mike ford,

Thanks for the reply.

I corrected my last post because something didn't seem right. I carefully re-checked the rifle's groove dimension by turning a brass plug-gauge that was a tight slip-fit into the muzzles. The gauge measured .384" in diameter. I then measured the depth of the grooves in the chamber cast. They measured approx. .007" deep. By adding the groove depths of .014" to the bore measurement, I deduct the groove diameter of the rifling to be approx. .398" diameter. That would mean that this rifle is in fact a 10x47R caliber, or somewhat of a variation thereof. I think the .410" dia 210g pistol bullets were oversize and only worked well because they were a reduced fire-forming load.

I have a .400" diameter Corbin bullet swage die so I swaged a .400" dia pure lead bullet and carefully tapped it into the muzzle of one of the barrels. As you can see in the picture below, when extracted, it showed that it was totally engraved by the rifling all-the-way-around with the lead being pealed back. Therefore, I believe a .400" diameter bullet would be the maximum diameter to use. Why the chamber has such a large neck dimension is not known. Could it have something to do with paper-patched bullets? Based on these latest measurements, I'm not going to use a bullet any larger than .400" diameter for the next loading.

I used my .400" diameter Corbin bullet swage die to swage some 250g half-jacket bullets. I'll post the results here after the next testing. Picture below shows the lead bullet after it was tapped into the muzzle, and the .410" dia 200g pistol bullet that I used for fire-forming, next to one of my .400" dia 250g swaged half-jacket bullet. To the right are 3 cartridges loaded with my 250g swaged .400" dia bullets. The fire-formed cases were neck-sized only in three stages; first using a 41 mag seater die, next a 41 mag sizing die, and finally a 41 Colt sizing die.

[mike ford]

buckstix,
All that is what makes this game fun. If you could walk into the MallMart and buy ammo for an antique rifle; just any "Joe Tentpeg" could make it shoot. My 10x42R barrel "slugs" .398" also, so T think you now have the correct( or at least close) bullet diameter. If your rifle will chamber a cartridge with a .400" bullet, I would use it. I like cast bullets .002" over groove diameter and you already have the .400" dies. BTW, I'm still jealous.
Mike

[buckstix]

Hello mike ford,

I ordered a set of 10x47r dies from C&H today. That should save me a lot of steps in place of all the neck sizing with the 3 different dies.

Results from the range today looked promising. I shot indoors at 50 feet again but this time I chronographed the loads. Yesterdays 210g .410" dia bullet loads measured 1175 fps. Todays 250g .400" dai bullet loads measured 1150 fps. The 250g bullets are still shot crossing, but this time they only had a 1-1/4" spread. (see pic below) Although still crossing, that would be approx. 3-3/4" at 50 yards. I think next time when velocity is increased they should start to come together and quit crossing. If not, I'll swage a heavier bullet. I still had a lot of unburned AA5744 powder in the barrels so tomorrow I'm going to try 26g IMR 4198 powder. I'm hoping for 1650 fps and not crossing. Stay tuned.

[mike ford]

buckstix,
Recognizing that I am far from being an expert, my "rule of thumb" has been that if the bullets from a sxs double rifle "cross" , then they need to spend more time in the barrel affected by the fact that each barrel is on the opposite side of the rifle's centerline. This means the bullet should be slowed down or increased in weight. In your case the bullet weight seems to be ok, and the velocity already seems pretty slow. A heavier bullet would still be within 10 mm bullets expected weight, but would result in even less velocity. I am concerned( knowing it is not my place) that targeting the rifle at 50 ft. may be giving results that won't apply at hunting distances. In other words, it is possible that with the same load, instead of the groups going from 1 1/4 " at 50 feet to 3 3/4" at 50 yards, they may get tighter. I think you should adjust your loads based on actual results at 80 to 100 meters( 100 preferable) instead of at 50 feet. I know this is counterintuitive , but a lot of things in this game are. On the other hand, as always, I might be horribly wrong.
Mike

[buckstix]

buckstix,
Recognizing that I am far from being an expert, my "rule of thumb" has been that if the bullets from a sxs double rifle "cross" , then they need to spend more time in the barrel affected by the fact that each barrel is on the opposite side of the rifle's centerline. This means the bullet should be slowed down or increased in weight. In your case the bullet weight seems to be ok, and the velocity already seems pretty slow. A heavier bullet would still be within 10 mm bullets expected weight, but would result in even less velocity.

Hello mike ford,

Thanks for the reply.

I understand what you are saying. Graham Wright mentions this principle in his book. However, he also mentions that sometimes the exact "opposite" is true. In this case, at such low velocities, the increase in velocity equates to an increase in recoil. This in turn increases the "torque" of the rifle which results in "less" crossing. This morning's shooting (pictured) resulted in right/left groups improving to 7/8" apart. Another improvement, but still crossing. Unfortunately the velocity was still low at only 1340 fps. I'll keep increasing the velocity and observe the results. It would help to know what the intended velocity was for the original cartridge.

I am concerned( knowing it is not my place) that targeting the rifle at 50 ft. may be giving results that won't apply at hunting distances. In other words, it is possible that with the same load, instead of the groups going from 1 1/4 " at 50 feet to 3 3/4" at 50 yards, they may get tighter. I think you should adjust your loads based on actual results at 80 to 100 meters( 100 preferable) instead of at 50 feet. I know this is counter-intuitive , but a lot of things in this game are. On the other hand, as always, I might be horribly wrong.
Mike

Hello mike ford,

Increasing my testing from 50 feet to 50 yards might show "slight" improvement, but only because of a finer sight picture. However, mathematically, it would not be possible for a rifle that's crossing at 50 feet, to be not crossing at 50 yards, or beyond. Ideally, the optimum result for any double rifle would be to have its right/left groups, shoot un-crossed, at "barrel distance apart" - shooting parallel, infinitely. But this never happens. The ideal barrel distance apart of this rifle 11/16 inches. If and when the 50 foot test groups "cluster" together into one single group, or start to un-cross slightly, I'll move out to 50 yards. More tests to follow.

[sharps4590]

Ahhh....good ol' double rifles chambered in cartridges for which there is no data. My first was that way, one of the most interesting and sometimes frustrating rifles I ever worked with...and I will never part with it. If you don't already have a Phd. in handloading you will by the time you get this one shooting together.

[mike ford]

buckstix,
Of course you are right that it is the barrel time in combination with recoil impulse. With regard to the distance, I'm not as sure, I never shot any at 50 feet( always 80-100 meters). If you can get a target at 100 meters that looks like the one above, frame it. I don't understand how you can shoot on one target and know which barrel made which hole. I have to shoot one barrel on one target and immediately shoot the other on another target( side by side). Then I have to lay one on the other to see if the rifle shoots wide or crosses. You are a better man than I. BTW, I don't know if 1340 fps is all that slow for the cartridge, I would have guessed factory velocity would have been 1400-1450 fps. I have nothing to go on, however.
Mike