Rare Unusual Hammer Double Rifle w/ "Double" Martini Action - Miller & Val.Greiss

[mike ford]

buckstix,
I'm pretty sure he wants to see the backside of the sidelocks.

Chapman,
This is not actually a dropping block action, rather it is a tilting block action of the Peabody type- forerunner of the Martini. Of course this one is two of them side by side.

[buckstix]

buckstix,
I'm pretty sure he wants to see the backside of the sidelocks.

Hello mike ford,

Thanks for the reply.

That could be, but I'm not going to take the side locks out of the wood. Too much chance of pulling loose a splinter. When 128 year old wood shrinks, the wood around the locks gets tight.

I took the barreled action out of the wood for cleaning and lubricating, but there's no reason to mess with the locks.

[mike ford]

buckstix,
That is OK with me, it wasn't my request. I was only providing, to the best of my ability, a translation of Chapman's request. My translator in Viet Nam always put his hand on my shoulder or arm, to indicate what he was saying were not his words, but mine. Consider my hand on Chapman's shoulder.
Mike

[chapmen]

Chapman,
This is not actually a dropping block action, rather it is a tilting block action of the Peabody type- forerunner of the Martini. Of course this one is two of them side by side.

What i see is an clear Martini action, not an Peabody- Martini action.
The type of sidelocks has nothing to do with the type of action- even if this is an side by side.

[chapmen]

That could be, but I'm not going to take the side locks out of the wood.

Also ok for me, would be just an little chance to get more light in the history of this rifle.

[chapmen]

Hello chapmen,

Thanks for the reply.

If you (or anyone else) ever find a scope with mounts that would fit my rifle, please let me know. I would like to buy it.



]

Almost impossible to find an mounted scope that will fit on this base.
I think you look for an scope that will work and not for an historic interesting scope, so
perfect would be an Zeiss Zieleins for this kind of double.
Build up an fitting mount for your base should not be an problem for an good craftsmen.

[mike ford]

Chapman,
A Martini is a modified Peabody type, which had an exterior hammer. The modification was changing from a hammer to an internal striker. Neither is a dropping block. I agree with you about a scope mount for the rifle.
Mike

[chapmen]

Mike, thanks for your explanation, but i am not going to discuss the differences between Peabody, Martini, Peabody- Martini, Martini Henry and so on.
The charakteristics are for me that those actions use an block, for me its not an point of falling, dropping ore tilting block with axis.
So i call them "block action"- that should make all happy.

[buckstix]

What i see is an clear Martini action, not an Peabody- Martini action.
The type of sidelocks has nothing to do with the type of action- even if this is an side by side.

Hello chapmen

Thanks for the reply.

I agree. This is an exposed hammer "Martini Style" action.

.
.

Chapman,
A Martini is a modified Peabody type, which had an exterior hammer. The modification was changing from a hammer to an internal striker. Neither is a dropping block. I agree with you about a scope mount for the rifle.
Mike

Hello mike ford,

Thanks for the reply.

.
.

Mike, thanks for your explanation, but i am not going to discuss the differences between Peabody, Martini, Peabody- Martini, Martini Henry and so on.
The charakteristics are for me that those actions use an block, for me its not an point of falling, dropping ore tilting block with axis.
So i call them "block action"- that should make all happy.

.
.

Hello chapmen,

Thanks for the reply.

I agree with you. I really didn't want to get side-tracked by all the technical aspects of the Martini Action. I only wanted to share with everyone the news of my rare acquisition. In my opinion, most gun people accept, and can understand the meaning (correct or not) of the description "Exposed Hammer Martini Action". A search of this term on the internet shows several rifles that have a tipping-block action, with an exposed (external) hammer. Some from Europe, some from England, and several from the U.S. So the description; Exposed Hammer, (or External Hammer) Martini Style Action, fits my rifle, exactly.

https://www.google.com/search?q=exte...w=1600&bih=747

[Axel E]

Buckstix, the mount base on this rifle is one of a group of slide-on mounts made in the 1920s. So it is not original to your rifle, but screwed on later.
I had the misfortune to encounter such a mount on my Collath Büchsflinte / cape gun in 20 & 7x72R.

It is the worst scope mounting contraption I fought yet. With the short, just 3" contact of the tapered dovetails, no clamping at all and just a positioning detent these mounts may have been satisfactory when brand new, but repeated recoil and a few on – off acts lead to a bit of play and destroy any accuracy. The "Short Side Mount" used in the 1930s on some 98K snipers were of such a design too, with the same tapered top to bottom dovetail joint . After about 100 shots they became shaky and useless. Armorers "fixed" them by adding a big clamping screw, making the mounts non-detachable.
With the mount on my cape gun making it permanent by screwing top and bottom together was no option. So I spent lots of ammo, many trips to a range and hours of attemts to fix it. All in vain! It always worked for a few shots, then went wild again. Detaching it always changed poi unpredictably. I thardly held zero for sighting in.

The steel 4x Hensold scope was to hevy anyhow, making the rear end of the Collath action barrels dropping down when open. So the gun had to be held open with the fingers of my left hand on reloading. After a year of frustration I gave up, removed the whole shebang from rifle and scope, fitted a straight sided dovetail base into the existing rib recess and mounted an old, small Zeiss Zielklein scope.

S I recommend: Instead of searching for a top part that may or rather may not fit your base, remove the thing from the rib and restart anew.

[buckstix]

Buckstix, the mount base on this rifle is one of a group of slide-on mounts made in the 1920s. So it is not original to your rifle, but screwed on later.
I had the misfortune to encounter such a mount on my Collath Büchsflinte / cape gun in 20 & 7x72R.
.

It is the worst scope mounting contraption I fought yet. With the short, just 3" contact of the tapered dovetails, no clamping at all and just a positioning detent these mounts may have been satisfactory when brand new, but repeated recoil and a few on – off acts lead to a bit of play and destroy any accuracy. The "Short Side Mount" used in the 1930s on some 98K snipers were of such a design too, with the same tapered top to bottom dovetail joint . After about 100 shots they became shaky and useless. Armorers "fixed" them by adding a big clamping screw, making the mounts non-detachable.
With the mount on my cape gun making it permanent by screwing top and bottom together was no option. So I spent lots of ammo, many trips to a range and hours of attempts to fix it. All in vain! It always worked for a few shots, then went wild again. Detaching it always changed poi unpredictably. It hardly held zero for sighting in.
.

The steel 4x Hensold scope was to heavy anyhow, making the rear end of the Collath action barrels dropping down when open. So the gun had to be held open with the fingers of my left hand on reloading. After a year of frustration I gave up, removed the whole shebang from rifle and scope, fitted a straight sided dovetail base into the existing rib recess and mounted an old, small Zeiss Zielklein scope.
.

S I recommend: Instead of searching for a top part that may or rather may not fit your base, remove the thing from the rib and restart anew.

Hello Axel E

Thanks for your reply.

I suspected that this base was a later add-on and not original to when the rifle was made. Also, based on the short 2" tapered dovetail, I believe a scope mounted in such a fashion would NOT be repeatable. I will likely just continue to use the iron sites as they are adequate for the 150 yard maximum range of the cartridge.

Maybe you could help me with this.......

I questioned the Rock Island Auction Company about the provenance of this rifle, which read; "Provenance: Property of a German Prince, the great, great grandchild Emperor Franz Josef I, Emperor of Austria and King of Hungary." I asked about where this information came from. They told me this rifle, and others, were consigned to Rock Island Auction Co. by the German Prince himself who owned the rifle. They told me he still lives in Germany. However, they would not give me his name.

Would you know of a German Prince living in Germany that is selling his gun collection?

[buckstix]

Also ok for me, would be just an little chance to get more light in the history of this rifle.

Hello chapmen,

Well, looks like you got your wish. Here are pictures of the locks. The reason I removed them is that today while shooting, I had the rifle "double" on me. I fired the right barrel, and BOTH barrels fired.

Normally the recoil of the 8-1/4 pound rifle from shooting the 325g bullet traveling 1560 fps, is about 17.7 ft/lbs. That's not bad from an 8-1/4 pound rifle. However, when it "doubled", the recoil was almost 71 ft/lbs. This is the first time this has happened in over 100 shots, but it really hurts from an 8-1/4 pound rifle.

This is why I removed the locks. I thoroughly cleaned and oiled them, and tightened a few loose screws. I'm hoping that this shouldn't happen again.

[Axel E]

Maybe you could help me with this.......
I questioned the Rock Island Auction Company about the provenance of this rifle, which read; "Provenance: Property of a German Prince, the great, great grandchild Emperor Franz Josef I, Emperor of Austria and King of Hungary." I asked about where this information came from. They told me this rifle, and others, were consigned to Rock Island Auction Co. by the German Prince himself who owned the rifle. They told me he still lives in Germany. However, they would not give me his name.

Would you know of a German Prince living in Germany that is selling his gun collection?

No, I never heard of a "German prince who recently sold his collection" and I doubt this very much. To me, this sounds like a typical American urban legend . All too often Americans ascribe dubious guns to famous or infamous Germans or Austrians.
There was an o-u double rifle ascribed to Hermann Goering, but had not left the factory before 1945 and was engraved only after HGs death at Nuremberg…
A double rifle " a christmas gift from HG to Heinrich Himmler", signed by a gunmaker who was dead by 1916, rusted, rotted and crudely repolished post-WW2, the "gift plaque" with a date when HH despised celebrating christmas…..
"Kaiser Wilhelm's plinking rifle", engraved and inlaid with a coronet over W. But the ccoronet indicates the rank of a simple "von", the lowest rank of German nobility….
and many more.
Austro - Hungarian emperor Franz –Josef I had two doughters with offspring only:
Gisela, 1856 – 1932, married to Prince Leopold von Bayern, 1846 – 1930, brother of the last Bavarian king Ludwig III.
Descendants:
Prince Georg of Bavaria (1880–1943), married Archduchess Isabella of Austria, no children.
Princess Auguste Maria of Bavaria (1875–1964), who married Archduke Joseph August of Austria
Archduke Joseph Francis of Austria, born on 28 March 1895; died on 25 September 1957

Archduchess Sophie Klementine Elisabeth Klothilde Maria, born on 11 March 1899; died on 19 April 1978 (aged 79)
Archduke Ladislaus Luitpold, born on 3 January 1901; died on 29 August 1946 (aged 45)

Archduchess Magdalena Maria Raineria, born on 6 September 1909; died on 11 May 2000 (aged 90)
Prince Konrad of Bavaria (1883–1969), who married Princess Bona Margherita of Savoy-Genoa
Prince Eugen of Bavaria, 1925 -1997, no children
Marie Valerie, 1868 – 1924, married to archduke Franz Salvator of Austria – Tuscany, estates in Austria,10 children, descendants all over Europe and America (Bakers in Alamosa, Alamosa County, Colorado)
You see, it's quite difficult to find a "living German? prince" among these people and further heirs.

[buckstix]

No, I never heard of a "German prince who recently sold his collection" and I doubt this very much. To me, this sounds like a typical American urban legend . All too often Americans ascribe dubious guns to famous or infamous Germans or Austrians. ........... You see, it's quite difficult to find a "living German? prince" among these people and further heirs.

Hello Axel E.

Thanks for the reply.

I suspected as much. Without any additional proof, beyond the provenance claimed by the Auction House, the "story" of the previous ownership means nothing. I had a special interest in this rifle because I was born in Austria, and my Father's first, and middle name, was "Franz, Josef" being named after the Famous Emperor. Oh, Well, I had asked Rock Island Auction Company to give the so-called Prince my name and number, and have him contact me. If that ever happens, I'll follow-up with a post.

[mike ford]

buckstix,
The rifle might not be defective, if the "off side" trigger was some how left "set" the recoil of the first shot would understandably set it off.
Mike