Rare Unusual Hammer Double Rifle w/ "Double" Martini Action - Miller & Val.Greiss

[buckstix]

Hello All,

I just acquired this Most Unusual Double Rifle at Auction, and I'm anxious to find any additional information. No markings except as described in the description and as I've shown. Any History, Information, or Opinion would be appreciated. Although the auction listed the caliber as 450 BPE Short, I could not find a cartridge with this name. However, a chamber cast matches "exactly" a cartridge called the "45 New South Wales." The chamber cast also showed 4-groove Henry Henry Rifling. In addition, the bores are absolutely MINT and Mirror bright. The last picture shows the 450 BPE Short cartridge along side a 45/70 cartridge. The case capacity of the 450 Short BPE is actually 5% more than that of a 45/90 Winchester case.
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[buckstix]

more pictures -

Note the tiny screw tucked under the cheek-piece. (see picture 4)

I removed it, and it does nothing except plug-into a neatly drilled hole. Could this be some kind of game counter?

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[buckstix]

more pictures -

The only markings: on the bottom of the right barrel are the last 4 digits of the serial number - and a nuber 7 on the bottom barrel rib.

A "Crown V" appears on both barrels.

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[mike ford]

buckstix,
You didn't indicate a length for the cartridge case, but the auction description indicated it is based on the English 450-3 1/4"(11.6X83R E Express) Based on your photo of a cartridge next to a 45-70 ( 45-2.1"), I opine your rifle is likely chambered for a cartridge known as 11.6X65R D Express (450-2 1/2"). The auction description refers to the rifle as a "double falling block" action, but it is not a "falling block" at all. Rather it is a "tilting block" in the Peabody style. This type action, including later Martini types, were known to be limited in the length of straight( or nearly so) case cartridges it would chamber. Because of this, the rifle might actually be chambered for 11.6X60R D Express (450 2 3/8"). The example you show next to the 45-70 has a jacketed bullet, but it is ca. 1880s cartridge and a lead bullet would be proper instead. In keeping with the practice of the time, "slugging" the barrel may result in a groove diameter larger than modern practice would indicate is proper for a 45 cal. cartridge. From other discussions, I'm certain you took note that "E" and "D" versions are involved, and the difference between the two is the taper of the case. In the 9.3s, you can see the difference in taper, but due to bullet diameter vs head diameter vs length, I'm not at all sure you can see the difference with the 11.6s. Accordingly, I wouldn't worry about that, unless it causes a problem, as in the 9.3s. In my personal opinion, you have a very interesting rifle and will have a fun project getting it to "regulate". Unfortunately, my info source only shows lead bullets and no weight is shown. I hope this helps.
Mike

[buckstix]

Hello mike ford,

Thanks for the reply.

According to the chamber cast, (nearest I can measure) - the length of the case is approx. 2-1/2", (2.625" chamber length) - the head dia is .550" - the rim dia is .620" - the case mouth dia is .491" - the rim thickness is .050" - the groove dia is .457" with 4-groove Henry rifling.

Yes, I am aware that "tilting block" would be the correct description. The RI Auction of Dec. 2017 listed an identical rifle but with a slightly longer double hammer, double Martini action with a caliber description of 450 "Long" BPE.

The example cartridge with the overall loaded length of 3.250" enters the chambers freely.

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[mike ford]

buckstix,
It looks like you have a really good start on your project. You might check dimensions of some of the 50 cal. Starline cases, you might find some much cheaper than Bertram or Kynoch that still meet your needs.
Mike

[Axel E]

The crown/V Vorratszeichen = in stock mark shows the rifle was on a maker's or dealer's shelf February- March 1893, ready for sale. So it was exempt from proof when the German proof law became effective on April 1, 1893.
Germans and austrians had three case lengths of the British .450 Express base:
The 11.6x83 R aka .450 lang is the .450 3 ¼". It came in two taper shapes, D and E.
11.6x65R aka .450 2 ½", a solid brass version of the British foil wound .450 2 ½" NSW carbine. Apparently more popular in Austria and Bohemia than in Germany. DWM case Nr. 191
The 11.6x60R aka .450 kurz = short is the one most often encountered . It would be a .450 2 3/8", but there is no British case of this length. DWM case Nr. 96. A fellow member showed me a Sauer & Sohn sidelock drilling in this chambering, complete with British style Henry rifling, 7 grooves and left hand twist.
The 1904 DWM case catalog shows a .459", 397 gr grooved lead bullet Nr. 105 and a 293 gr hollow point grooved lead bullet Nr. 30 for the two shorter cases.

[buckstix]

Hello mike ford,

Thanks for the reply. I have approx 275 once fired 450-400 3-1/4" brass I can use for this loading.

Hello Axel E,

Thanks for the reply.

Both barrels show a left-hand twist w/ 4-groove rifling. I originally measured the chamber cast of the rifling as being .457", but this was across the flats of the grooves. When I measured again across the "edges" of the grooves, I came up with .460". With this chamber being 2-5/8" long, I'm assuming the cartridge for this rifle would be the 2-1/2" case version, or the 11.6x65 R. DWM case Nr. 96. Do you agree?

I have the ability to swage .458" diameter bullets from 225g up to 450g so bullets will not be a problem. However, I have no idea of what velocity to try to obtain to achieve regulation. Would you have any data on velocity?

As always, thanks for your help.

[mike ford]

buckstix,
Blackpowder Express cartridges typically had lighter bullets than later Nitro Express cartridges of the same caliber, so I would guess 310-360 gr at 1350- 1750 fps. Keep in mind that free advice is worth pretty much what you have to pay for it. If I had your rifle, those are the figures I would shoot for, but with similar cast bullets. Then the sights will tell you what the rifle wants.
Mike

[buckstix]

Hello mike ford,

Thanks for the reply. I'm hoping to find some ballistic info on the British 45 New South Wales cartridge. Somewhere in my book library I have the 3-volume set of British Cartridges.

In the mean time, I've loaded some cartridges for testing. Results to follow.

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[buckstix]

Well, here is my first test target. I used 2 different aiming points. Dead center hold and 6 o'clock hold. Although this is only the beginning of my load testing, things look very promising. I'll try some heavier bullets next time, to see if they un-cross.

[buckstix]

Hello all,

Thanks for the help with the caliber and bullet info.

I'm happy to say that I have this neat rifle up and running. Below is my latest shooting results. I tried 3 different bullet weights; 300g, 350g, and 400g. It only took about 45 rounds with testing 6 different loads to find its sweet spot. I might do a little more tweaking because the barrels are still crossing. But even so, with the way its grouping, I'm more than pleased. With groups slightly over an inch at 50 yards, I expect to obtain about 4" groups at 150 yards. Its relatively flat shooting out that range. At 150 yards it still has over 800 ft/lbs of energy. That's plenty enough for anything here in Wisconsin. Also, the pressures with this load are mild. The fired cases drop easily back into the chambers. This allows for neck sizing only which will result in long case life.


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[mike ford]

bucksticx
I can see what you mean by "crossing", but they are so close normal dispersion may have caused that. I would be interested in seeing 100 yard group. I can see why you are "more than pleased".
Mike

[sharps4590]

That is close. As Mike mentioned I'd sure try it at 75 and 100 just for my own edification. I'm impressed you got such good loads so quickly, a hearty WELL DONE!! That's a composite group of less than 1 1/2 inches and....from an old rifle chambered for an old cartridge for which you basically had no data, wow!! Centering it will be a snap. First double I worked with was German in 11.15 X 60R and it took me 6 months to get half that close.

[buckstix]

bucksticx
I can see what you mean by "crossing", but they are so close normal dispersion may have caused that. I would be interested in seeing 100 yard group. I can see why you are "more than pleased".
Mike

Hello mike ford,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, part of the spread might be due to inconsistencies in aiming with 67 year old eyes.