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New gun, new questions. Gun was originally a 16x16x 9.3x72R but was very professionally monoblocked and rebarreled to 20x20 x .219 Zipper at some point. Can't find an original proof on the bbls but assume the work was done in the US in the 1930s-40s due to the Zipper's short popularity here. Any thoughts? Here's the gun. https://jamesdjulia.com/item/2564-391/.P1130594.jpgP1130605.jpgP1130606.jpgP1130596.jpg
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Sam,
The drilling has , no doubt, been extensively re worked. Where, when, and what, is the question. I have a little experience with "mono-blocking"( sleeve) and the drilling doesn't show the tell tale sign of rebarreling by sleeveing of original barrels. Since the process includes installation of a new hingepin and refitting the barrels, a space between the front of the underlugs and the action is a result. Also, the Julia description mentions the original 9.3x72 R barrel was lined to .219 Zipper. The 16 ga barrels could have been lined also, at the same time. Under this scenario , the original barrels would have been monoblock, rather than bundleing, accounting for the visible joint on the shotgun barrels. A close examination would be required to determine just what was done.
mike -
Mike, thanks. Here's the telltale barrel line Weisgerber rebarrel.jpg. Is it possible that the second number on the action (3229) is the manufacture date? Otherwise, the original proof on the barrels was probably destroyed in the re-barreling. SamComment
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Sam,
The 3229 is not the date, which would have been placed on the barrel, rather than the action. Anyway, 1929 didn't have 32 months. If sleeved in Germany, it would be unusual for the joint at the "monoblock" not to be disguised with engraving. Does the rifle barrel have the original 9.3x72R proof marks? If not, how is it known that the original caliber was 9.3x72R? All in all, I can't feel comfortable that my initial assessment is correct. Do you have the drilling actually "in hand"? If so, could you post additional photos? I would like to see the inside of the lock plates, there is something a little unusual about the screws. I would feel more comfortable if our member John Laborde weighed in.
MikeComment
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Mike, here's why I think it was 9.3x72. P1130595_LI.jpg.I'm hesitant to remove the locks because I don't have gunsmith's screwdrivers and would hate to ding them up. I'll ask my gunsmith to take them off next month when I get back to NC. I'd appreciate John's input. Here's another of the lock. P1130611.jpg. Hope I wasn't a sucker buying this one. SamComment
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Sam,
With the 118,35 proof mark, the most likely caliber is 9.3x72R, even though I have seen other older 9.3s and 9x58 1/2R S&S with it, 9.3x72R is most common. I don't think you were a sucker, it's a nice drilling regardless of when and where the work was done. I was uncertain because the underlugs didn't look like they had been set back in refitting. Maybe if the shot barrels were sleeved and the rifle barrel lined instead, they didn't replace the hinge pin. Normally, if the rifle barrel was sleeved, most( if not all) rifle proof marks would be gone. The reason I was uneasy about the locks is they seem to have more screw heads outside and seem to have interrupter sears, which are usually found on Anson-Kerner type boxlocks.
MikeComment
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Mike, are you suggesting this might be a "faux" sidelock but really a boxlock action? It's only got one tang cocking pin and the shotgun barrel indicators are the screws on the sideplate. SamComment
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Sam,
I didn't know, I have a Belgian double with dummy sideplates, but it doesn't show screws that would hold parts in a real sidelock. I have not seen, but have heard of dummy side plates that had dummy screws in those locations. You explained one screw I didn't understand, with the statement that it is a "cocking indicator". I guess the shot barrels have side locks, and the rifle barrel is fired by a triggerplate lock. Maybe the large screw at the forward part of the lockplate is to hold it on, but the usual way to hold the front on would be a mortise and tenon type arrangement. The other screw I an unsure of is the one that is above the lockplate, where you normally find the one holding the interrupting sear. My friend Walter Grass would sometimes convert "boxlocks" to sidelocks upon customer request. I suppose it would be possible to convert an Anson-Kerner action to sidelock and wind up with a confusing( maybe only to me) screw arrangement. I'm not ready to say that is the story, only that I don't know. I would lean on John or Axel to explain it.
MikeComment
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Mike, interesting. I had a Simson drilling with fake sideplates. But the "cocking indicator" I was referring to was the one that rotates to show whether the shotgun barrels are cocked or fired. Here's an example from the Welke drilling I have. A-Welke-German-sidelock-drilling xmas_LI.jpgComment
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Sam,
On the Simson, that is not the typical location for "faux"(dummy) side plates. Does it have two underlugs, side by side ( one on each side of the rifle barrel)? If so, it was built according to a Franz Jaeger patent that didn't have a hinge pin. Instead, it has a round lug milled on each side of the action. This makes more bearing area for the underlugs, but the side of the action has to be milled out to accept the lugs. Such a plate as this is necessary to cover the lugs. If this is not a Jaeger type action, I have no explanation for the plate.
On the Welke drilling, note that it doesn't have the screws above the lockplate, like the ones on the Weisgerber that I was puzzled about.
MikeComment
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Mike, yes, the Simson had "chopper lumps" as I believe Axel referred to them. So the plates covered the "lumps". SamP1110207_LI.jpgComment
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Sam,
Yes, those are the ones I was talking about, I'm sure the answer is simple but I don't know it.
The Simson was built on the Franz Jaeger system. A hammer drilling with this locking system was given away by the GGCA several years ago, in the annual give away. As I recall it was 8x72R. Franz Jaeger was the grandfather of our founder Dietrich Apel and Dietrich was always interested in the variations and applications of his grandfathers patents. BTY my understanding of "chopper lumps" is entirely different than these. My understanding of chopper lumps is a system of joining barrels(usually double barrels) where each barrel has half of the underlug(lump) as part of the barrel and the two halves are dovetailed and hard soldered together. This makes a strong system. I don't remember if you have asked about this drilling before.
MikeComment
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Mike, yes I asked about the Simson and Axel gave me a lot of information about it. I auctioned it to "move up the drilling food chain".Comment
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