Thieme und Schlegelmilch

[Firpo]

Hey guys guess what? I made it to the range today to give Gertrude a test drive with the ammo I’d made. Sorry for scattering things on a bunch of different threads, this has been quite an undertaking for me but now that I have things pretty squared away I’ll try to keep everything here.

I started things out at the 50 yard rifle range, had the whole thing to myself which was nice and allowed me to stroll down to the target when I wanted to take a closer look. Started things off with 28 grains of H4895 and put four rounds within an inch of each other which is just amazing (look close as two were in the same hole). Only problem was they’re about 7” too high.

I really should have stopped there but what’s the fun in that? Moving up to 29 grains everything seemed to fall apart rapidly resulting in 7”-10” groups if you can call them that. I didn’t even bother with the 30 grain loads I’d made figuring they’d be even more out of line. Heck, I’d probably have to aim at the bottom of the target to hit the top. In any event, I then moved on to 25 grains of Reloader 7 and things improved again but still nothing like the initial load. About my only options at this point, that is if I want to continue shooting at this range (50 yard max) is to slow things down or move to a heavier bullet. If ya’ll have any suggestions I’m open to hearing them.....please . Here’s a pic of the load data I used and in the pic is the 8X72r next to a 30-30. Right now I’m at what I’d call a starting load and I’m not sure about going lighter on the powder charge concerned things could go BOOM and not bang. I do know that I could move to a pistol powder ie Unique and drop 100-200fps but the chamber pressures shoot above the limit I’ve set of 20,000CUP. I’m going to have to think on this one a bit.

Well next it was off for a round of trap and again I had the entire field to myself. Plopped in one of the 16 gauge BP loads I’d made, called for the bird and nailed it. At least I think I did but it was hard to tell through the smoke screen I’d produced . That was just cool. Things rapidly deteriorated with my hit to miss ratio ending up only hitting 10/25. I did figure out the problem though, that being that I need to take up a much bigger lead on the bird. Man, the shot is moving so slowly you can see it clearly as it flies through the air. All in all I’m very happy with the load of 2.5 Drams and 1oz shot. No need to change anything in my book, nice and mild for the old girl.

That’s really about it for now. I’ll be reading about different loads for the rifle and see what I can come up with as a solution.

Stay tuned

[Diz]

Firpo, I don't recall if it was mentioned that the sights were marked for range or not and here is just a thought. Since you are shooting at 50 yards and the sights may be calibrated for a 100 yards or meters, it could be that what you may be seeing is the mid-range trajectory and I would try to figure out the sights first before messing with the loads. It also seems to me your rifle barrel likes H-4895. Black powder shotgun can be fun. Thanks, Diz

[Firpo]

Thanks Diz. I think I really need to invest in a chronograph. I figure that way I could calculate the trajectory and utilize ballistic tables not to mention how accurate my wild guesses are as far as load data. Looks like I can get a Caldwell for under $100. Anyone have a favorite they use?

[Diz]

Firpo,

I use two, an Oehler 35P and a Pact Pro with infrared screens. They actually read within a few FPS of each other so I usually take the Pact to the range. I power the screens with a six volt motorcycle battery and it never misses a shot. Both have printers which I like because I just staple the read-out to the target with all the info and put it in a binder for future reference. Saves a lot of heart ache later. I think that today most all of them are accurate but some read better than others.and missed shots are a real pain. Using one can really help with developing loads but I have found that velocity is no indicator of pressure and you still need to watch all the signs. PM me and I will be happy to try and work up something with you.

Thanks, Diz

[Firpo]

Hi All,

Just wanted to check in and let you know I have not fallen off the face of the earth. Mamma had a two level disk surgery three weeks ago and then we drove to Dallas, Tx which ended up being 3228.8 miles round trip. Keeping my fingers crossed I get to take a quick range trip this week and report back with the results.

Thanks again for all your help

[mike ford]

Firpo,
You didn't say whether your wife or your mother had the surgery, but either way, our good wishes are with her. Having gone through 4 surgeries on my back/neck, I know how she feels and know she will need your help for a while. I really feel for her for the ride home-60 miles was enough.
Mike

[Firpo]

Thanks Mike. Linda would be my lovely bride of 10 years. Since you know the drill I’ll fill you in on the details. She was scheduled to have a two level discectomy L3/L4 and L4/L5. First the surgeon removed material, both bone and soft tissue from the opposite of her nerve bundle giving them some room to move and free up pressures. Both of her herniated discs were around 6mm FYI. As it rurned out the Lord gave us an extra blessing and having probed the area between her vertebrae and her nerve bundle he decided that he didn’t need to remove any part of the discs. Yahoo! She’s doing much better now that we’re home and we’re continuing to pray and give thanks.

[mike ford]

Firpo,
My first two being in the cervical area, I was really surprised how hard it was to get around after the first one in the lumbar region. Then, I was having to support half my body weight, not just my head. I thought a normal walker would be enough, but found out it wasn't. I learned the first day that I needed the type with wheels, brakes, and a seat. If your wife doesn't have this type, I recommend it greatly. I also find very helpful a Wal-Mart folding metal stool ( black-padded seat). It may be high enough to be more convenient for her at the Vanity and kitchen cabinets. Things will get better as time goes by and she learns how turn in bed with the backbrace, and keep it from pushing her cloths down. Tell her, we are pulling for her. There will be time to work on the handloads after she gets better. BTW, If you can't cook, learn.
Mike

[Firpo]

I about split a gut when you said the chair would rip her in the kitchen. While my dear wife has many amazing attributes, cooking would not make the list. Fortunately for me I’ve always enjoyed cooking, got that from my mom God rest her soul. Needless to say I get around the kitchen pretty darn well for a man. As to the brace, she fortunately isn’t required to wear one, heck, she wasn’t even given one. Just instructions of “no bending, lifting or twisting” and not to exceed a 90* angle in her waist. She’s got the “log roll” down pat for getting in the bed and yes, we have various walkers and a wheel chair so she’s good to go. I do appreciate the advice Mike.

[mike ford]

That is great, she lucked out. I guess you are the deer camp cook also.
Mike

[Firpo]

Hi Guys,

Yippie!

It took a few weeks but I was finally able to make it out for another range trip. This time I had loaded 3 rounds each of 7 to 8.5 grains of Unique with a filler (the stuffing from a dog toy) and two more sets of three with 27 and 28 grains of H4895 (thanks Diz). I was diligent about letting the barrels cool between shots however with the Unique loads it didn’t ever seem to get but warm. With some guesstimating I’d say that with 8 grains, the best group, velocity of the 181 grain cast bullet is around 1475fps which I’m thinking would be plenty enough gun to take a whitetail at 100 yards. I should also note that all the Unique loads were very mild, much less recoil than even a 30-30 with cast loads. Someday I’m hoping to take it to a range with 100 yard benches to get a better feel as to where things are with the H4895. My hope is to keep the chamber pressures as low as possible, getting the most bang for my buck as it where. That brings a question to mind. According to load data the Unique loads were supposed to have, oh let’s call it a 20% higher chamber pressure while in my subjective opinion the recoil felt about half that of the H4895. Can someone explain the relationship between chamber pressures and felt recoil in a way a 12 year old could understand?

Now I need to have a casting session, trying out that new Accurate mold I just purchased and getting myself in good shape with my inventory. Having found what I’d call a contender for accuracy (3/8” group @ 50 yard) I’ll load up a box just to see what the load can really do. I’m finding this to be both exciting and rewarding and really want to thank all you guys for being patient and providing me with guidance. Sure would be something to take “Frau Gertrude” in the field for a hunt.

[Diz]

Firpo, there are a couple of great looking groups on that paper. As to felt recoil, it has more to do with speed and the amount of ejecta. What was the velocity of the H-4895 load? I do believe that rate of acceleration has something to do with it also but that point can be argued. You are doing great! Diz

[Firpo]

Hi Diz,

The H4895 is moving around 1700fps at 14,400 CUP’ish. Thanks for the explanation and I understand there are many variables that go in to recoil. I was more just trying to see understand if there was a relationship between felt recoil and chamber pressure ie lower chamber pressure = less recoil.

[mike ford]

Firpo,
The pressure does affect recoil, but as Diz mentioned, because it affects velocity(speed of ejecta). The weight of the powder charge is included with the bullet weight and filler to equal the weight of the ejecta, even though it has been converted to gas. Since the Unique powder charge is less than the 4895, the recoil would be less, even if the 4895's velocity was the same as Unique's.
Mike

[Firpo]

Thanks Mike, I understand what you’re saying.....I think.

Just finished casting 45 bullets but when I went to Lube them it’s nowhere to be found. I’ve ripped my house apart looking for my Alox and nada. This will have to wait until my order arrives.