Thieme und Schlegelmilch

[Firpo]

Well thank you Mike, I appreciate that. My plans for now are just to get things on paper, hunting in Southern California is a risk I’m just not willing to take (haha). My wife Linda and I are thinking hard on moving to Texas, in fact, we have a trip planned there the first week of April to get the lay of the land. If we do end up moving I’ll certainly rethink things and want to develope some hunting loads. I’m thinking that a chronograph is in my future just to get that accomplished. I’m also thinking that isn’t going to be too hard to accomplish as the starting load I’m looking at should be in the area of 1700fps.

Just checked the ballistic tables for a 165 grain RNSP .308 with a muzzle velocity of 1700fps gives maybe 813 foot pounds of energy at 100 yards. I believe a 357 Magnum with a 158 grain FMJ is in the area of 550 ft lbs. at the muzzle. That in itself I would think should do the trick on small deer wouldn’t you think? And if I could crank things up o 2000fps I could be in the area of 1,136 ft lbs which should really do the job.

Found a free ballistic calculator which kind of confirms what I found in my manual. Since I was limited to small library I chose a 170 grain RNSP.

[mike ford]

Firpo,
If your starting load gives 1700 fps, your final load would likely be over that. Rather than the .308" bullet, I would suggest the new 32 Win. Special Flex Tip bullet, also at 165 gr. You could likely safely approach the velocity of the Special and that bullet is made to expand at that speed. I have no trouble getting 2150 fps with 170 gr .3215 bullet in my 8x57R/360. If you get 2000 fps with the Flex Tip bullet, a careful shot would kill a Whitetail graveyard dead. That would be a reasonable velocity(maybe conservative). My hunting load for the 8x72R was the 170gr(.318) bullet at about 2227 fps, but the rifle was nitro proofed. You don't need to shoot the hunting loads all the time to have fun.
Mike

[Firpo]

Well Gents, looks like I have to put things on hold for a few weeks. I had a setback and the gun had to go to the doctor’s.....aka the gunsmith. Dog gonnit! I was cleaning all the nooks and crannies and while wiping off the extractor I had removed, the stem snapped right off in my hand. I took it to a person I know that’s a great tig welder and he did his best but the fix didn’t hold. Now it’s at the smith’s getting repaired properly. Grrrrrrrrrr

It’ll all be okay I’m sure, just a setback that’s going to give me time to get things together. I’ll have all the components sitting ready when I get it back. Any of you ever break something that you wish you’d just left alone?

[mike ford]

Firpo,
I would guess most of the oldest of us have. I have learned that there are not that many mistakes that you can make that you or someone else can't correct.
Mike

[Peter K]

I have a jeweller friend that does quite a bit of repair in his trade. He has all the small torches and jeweller lathes to make small repairs and build replacement parts. I'm just putting this out there for consideration as skilled trades people doing small repairs are jewellers in addition to welders.
I had a small front sight from a shuetzen rifle that broke off. Yes he could braze it together but instead he made me a new one on his little lathe out of platinum. Nice and silvery like the original. (O.K. I loaned him my rototiller so he could do his garden.)
Peter

[Firpo]

Thanks guys. I tried a couple good jewelers in the area and that didn’t want to have a thing to do with me. Been very tempted to buy my own lathe, mill and tig welder. I figured I could take some machining classes and practice practice practice and I could make my own repairs.

[mike ford]

Firpo,
In my opinion a lathe( and mill) is a requirement of life. You can learn a lot from You Tube, I recommend Lyle Peterson, "Mr Pete 222"( a retired High School shop teacher), Adam Booth on "Abom79", and Keith Rucker on "Vintage Machinery". You can call them up by the name of the channel or by their name. There are a lot of others, but these do a very good job of explaining things. Good luck, make chips.
Mike

[sharps4590]

I better write those names down...

A lathe is like a loader on a tractor....and an ox/acetylene torch. Once you have one you wonder how on earth you got along without it...and I'm not much of a lathe operator.

[Diz]

Ran a few numbers for the 8x72R Sauer with a 165 grain Lyman RN cast and looking to get approximately 1700 fps in a 24" barrel and the numbers come out like this:

Accurate 5744 ( Mike's suggestion) = 21.0 grains

Fill = 40.3%
Pmax = 14,504 psi
Vel = 1712 fps
Burn = 90.9%
Eff = 23.1%

Alliant RL-7 = 26.0 grains

Fill = 49.3%
Pmax = 14,317 psi
Vel = 1748 fps
Burn = 90.3%
Eff = 23.5%

These are calculated figures so use your own discretion.

Diz

[Firpo]

I really appreciate all of you being so willing to help.

Great Info. Right now I’m looking at a move to Tx in the next 6-12 months so I’m thinking I should hold off on the capital equipment expenditures till after the move.

[sharps4590]

I am not surprised at the Reloader-7 figures. I like the higher load density as well. It has always proved a good powder for me in straight/straight taper cases.

5744, I've only tried it in two cartridges and the results have been less than hoped. I have a sneaking suspicion that has more to do with the cartridges I've tried it in than the effectiveness of the powder.

[Firpo]

Hi Guys,

Thought I’d check in and give everyone an update. Just got Frau Gertrude back from the gunsmith, darn extractor broke.......again.......and I decided enough was enough so three weeks ago she went to see the Dr., happy to report it’s back now and better than ever. The 9.3X72r went through the 8X72r dies without issue. Trimmed off the excess, expanded with a .323 ball and I was good to go. I have now loaded up a box of ammo with 28 grains, 29 grains and 30 grains of H4895 as well as 25 grains of RL7. To me it’s one cool looking round and I’m really excited to put it on paper. I did order a powder/shot scoop that will make loading the shotgun shells much easier. It will be arriving tomorrow and once here I’ll load up a box of shells as well. Then it’s off to the range for a round of trap then over to the 50 yard line to exercise the rifle. Wish me luck and I’ll be sure to give a report.

Here’s a picture of my load data, thanks diz, and a round sitting next to a 30-30.

[mike ford]

Firpo,
Great, I'm looking forward to your report.
Mike

[Axel E]

Firpo, just some remarks:
1.) Other than the American bs in COTW and Ammo Encyclopedia, the 8x72R is NOT a Sauer & Sohn cartridge! Instead, it was the first cartridge developed by Wilhelm Brenneke in 1898. So it should be called 8x72R Brenneke, not "Sauer".
2.) The 8x72R Brenneke never was a blackpowder- lead bullet number like the 9.3x72 R. It was loaded from the start with smokeless and jacketed bullets, though some people then reloaded the cases with black and lead. CIP max pressure 2800 bar (9.3x72R = 2000 bar) It was meant by Brenneke to give better ballistics than the 8x58R Sauer & Sohn, but still be slimmer and lower pressure than the 8x57IR, allowing for lighter drillings.
3.) Some pressure tested load data from the German DEVA handbook, all with 196 gr .318" jacketed bullets:
35.0 gr Varget, 1970 fps, 2330 bar
40.0 gr VV N140, 2139 fps, 2061 bar
41.0 gr VV N140, 2234 fps, 2370 bar

[Firpo]

Thank you for the infomation Axel. This gun’s rifle barrel has been sleeved, I’m sure due to deterioration and re-chambered for the 8X72r........or something very similar. also being that it was originally designed for an unknown BP cartridge I figured it smart to keep chamber pressures as low as possible. Who knows, since the range I’ll be shooting at only goes to 50 yards I may be right on.

I did get the powder/shot measurer and loaded up a box of shells, man oh man did that make things much easier. That said I now have a box of shotgun shells as well as a box of rifle ammo, sounds like I need to get to the range. Seriously though, rain is coming in tonight so if I’m going to do this anytime over the next week or two I’d better get moving.

Range report to follow.......