Thieme und Schlegelmilch

[Firpo]

Okay guys, here’s my first attempt at posting a few pictures of “Gertrude”. Don’t laugh I figured a gun with this much personality deserved a name. I believe what I have is a late 1800’s (1888-1891) Thieme and Schlegelmilch combination gun. Also I think it’s a 16 gauge shotgun with a 2 1/2 or 2 9/16 chamber (I’ve read both) and after casting the chamber and a huge learning experience I think the rifle is chambered in 8X72r Sauer. I am really looking forward to working through things and making this gun a shooter once again. I already have 50 pcs of 9.3X72r Sauer on order to use as a parent cartridge and will order the dies Monday if I can. Of course there’s a whole other side to this gun........literally and I’ve never reloaded brass shotgun shells either. Going to have to figure out the correct components for that as well.

Well thanks for taking the time to read my post and I look forward to reading any input, advise or direction you’d care to share.

[Firpo]

Looks like it worked. Here are a few more pics of the gun.

[Firpo]

Last one I think. I forgot inside the locks is stamped the letter “B” and I don’t have a clue what that may be.

[ellenbr]

Early 1893 Lefaucheux action that looks to have experienced reproof @ some point. Can you post a better image showing the marks forward of the flats? Also what is the encircled initials on the flats?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[sharps4590]

As long as you call her Frau Gertrude. Looks as good as it did first time I saw it, nice old piece.

Raimey, it has the crown over V stamp, I thought that dated it on the shelf in 1891, no? Did that carry on through 1893 as well?

[Firpo]

Hi Raimey,

Hopefully these are clearer. I apologize for the image quality, not sure what happened but I’ll giv’r another go. Oh, almost forgot, to me the encircled letters appear to be “HAZ”.

[algmule]

Hello

If my information is correct there were, as of April 1. 1893 no more crown V:s stamped on guns.

In June 1893 the following happened to the company

In unser Firmenregister ist zufolge Verfügung vom 24. Juni 1893 am selbigen Tage eingetragen worden, und zwar unter No. 312, woselbst die Firma Thieme & Schlegelmilch mit dem Sitze zu Suhl vermerkt steht: Die Firma ist in ” Nimrod-Gewehrfabrik-Thieme & Schlegelmilch” verändert. Vergleiche No. 314 des Firmenregisters. Demnächst ist in dasselbe Register unter No. 314 die Firma “ Nimrod-Gewehrfabrik” Thieme & Schlegelmilch mit dem Sitze in Suhl und als deren Inhaber der Kaufmann H. Ernst Schlegelmilch in Suhl eingetragen worden.
Suhl, den 26. Juni 1893.
Königliches Amtsgericht.

H. Ernst Schlegelmilch took over the company on 7. December 1892. Before that I believe he together with Wittwe (widow) Ernestine Schlegelmilch, maiden name Geelhaar, owned the company.

Also: the earliest I’ve seen the following trademark in an ad is April 1895
ab00.jpg
Also again. would you terribly mind posting an image of your chamber cast, preferably with measurments?

Kind regards
Peter

[ellenbr]

Good eye there Moose Snoot. Some give that the V surmounted by a Crown(Vorrat) denotes a weapon being on hand in a particular month, say March to April, but it may well extend to the period of January - April of 1893. In the overall scheme of things a couple months doesn't amount to much. But nonetheless, this longarm was onhand in a shop in early 1893. Now it could have very well have been manufactured earlier but was onhand in early 1893.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Many thanks for the image effort there Firpo. I now see two Imperial Eagles near the T&S stamp. On the encircled HAZ I seem to recall that it denotes Hermann Anschütz Zella Sankt Blasii, but I pause for caution for some reason. Typically 3 initials denotes a name & city but the Z could easily be for a Z mechanic.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[algmule]

Hello

Raimey,
I believe what I meant was the month of March. I do agree it may have been manufactured earlier, i.e. we don't actually know for how long it was on the shelves, all we know is it was on the shelves in March 1893.

Still like to see an image of the chamber cast.

EDIT: and the gun may have been sold at a later time. It could have been sold in 1894 for all I know. Does anyone know when the Nimrod trade mark actually was introduced?

Kind regards
Peter

[Firpo]

Gentlemen,

Thank you for the information you have provided. I can understand now why sharps encouraged me to join this forum, your knowledge on the subject is amazing. As requested I’ve attached two images, one of the casting with measurements and a second for visual reference with the casting centered and a 9.3X72r case and 30-30 Winchester (it was altered by an experiment gone awry) atop and below.

[mike ford]

Firpo,
According to the dimensions of your chamber cast, the rifle caliber is not based on the 9.3x72R Sauer and Sohn, which has a head diameter of about .473". For basic cases, you need 9.3x72R Norm., instead. The common 8x72R is not a Sauer and Sohn cartridge, rather; it is a Brenneke cartridge based on the 9.3x72R Norm. case. You didn't mention the bullet diameter, which in the common 8x72R would be .318", even though some might accept slightly larger bullets. My own 8x72R will not accept a bullet larger than .318", even though other "I" bore rifles of mine will happily accept .321-.3215" bullets. I actually think there may have been an 8x72R Sauer and Sohn cartridge; but it would have been based on the .473" head diameter 9.3x72R S&S case. This would be an entirely different cartridge, rarely found, especially in other than Sauer and Sohn rifles. Furthermore, T&S often used cartridges that differed from the common ones, usually with the common 9.3x72R Norm. head diameter( about .427-9"). I bring this up, because the length of your chamber cast is shorter than the cases used in my rifle ( which is not T&S make). Your rifle may be something like 8x70R Nimrod. The only practical difference is the "trim to length". Brenneke developed the 8x72R and 7x72R cartridges to allow "slim", lightweight rifles/ combination guns chambered for 8x57R/7x57R class cartridges( slightly less powerful, though). These were introduced after the date of your rifle, and might explain the "repair proof"( crown R) shown on your rifle. Maybe it was originally chambered for a shorter cartridge and then rechambered at a later date. The repair proof only shows that something substantial was done, not what it was. Don't let any of this bother you, you have a nice "fun" project ahead of you that will actually be pretty easy.
Mike

[Axel E]

The crown/V Vorratszeichen was stamped in February and March 1893 only on guns then in stock at makers or dealers. Though the German proof law was given in 1891, it was effective on April 1, 1893 only. During the two years, proof rules had to be decreed and proofhouses installed.
As the combination barrels were on a shelf in 1893 an original chambering to 8x72R (1923 designation) "Sauer & Sohn" is highly unlikely. Contrary to popular, especially American, belief the 8x72R aka 8x72R/360 aka 8.15x72R aka 8x72R Nimrod was not a Sauer & Sohn development, but was as the 8.1 x72R Brenneke the first cartridge invented by old Wilhelm Brenneke, Leipzig, in 1898. That's too late for a 1893 gun. So slug your barrel and remeasure your chamber cast. As the gun is equipped with a tang peep sight and a front set trigger it was undoubtedly built as a combination gun first. I am puzzled a bit by the proofmarks: the watertable shows a post-April 1893 repair proof, while the barrels have the Vorratszeichen only. The primary Repair proofmarks ought to be under the barrels . The marks on the action are secondary only. Maybe HAZ had made a set of shot barrels (lost to history now) later and had it proofed as prescribed. At the same time HAZ converted the rifle barrel to the more modern 8x72R, but "forgot" to submit it for reproof too.
BTW, there never were 2 9/16" cases. The 65mm case length was defined as the metric equivalent of the British 2 ½" shell with the same min/max dimensions.
HAZ cannot be Hermann Anschütz/Anschuetz, as the only 1890s Hermann gave his address as Mehlis. Zella and Mehlis were different towns until WW1. But there were two Heinrich Anschütz active in Zella in the 1890s. But as Raimey wrote, the initials may also stand for one of the Heinrich, Hermann, Hugo Ansorg active in Zella or someone entirely else.

[ellenbr]

I too was leaning toward Hermann Ansorg being a possibility in the HAZ pool of mechanics.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[Firpo]

Boy you guys sure have my head spinning. Just to double check I took another measurement of the casting, this time with a better set of calipers and am coming up with an OAL of 2.770” or about 70mm’s. Also to answer your question Mike the bore slugs out at .3185/.323. I was able to capture a portion of the rifling in the casting and from that is where I took the measurements. In my Cartridges of the World 14th addition I’m only seeing one 8X72r case which looks very similar to the chamber casting. Trying to figure out what an “8X72r Norm.” might be for comparison sake and find myself coming up a bit short, no pun intended. While I have not yet called to confirm my order of 9.3X72r cases now would be a good time to figure out if I’ve made a mistake. Also thought a couple images of the rim of the 9.3X72r sharps sent me sitting in the breech could help solve the mystery. Please, if there is anything else you need to know let me know and I’ll do my best to come up with the answer.