Thieme und Schlegelmilch

[mike ford]

Fripo,
I'm sure the case Sharps 4590 sent you is a 9.3x72R Norm.( Norm.=Normalizert[?]=normalized=Standardized), as he uses them in some of his rifles. This is a case intended as a compromise in dimensions between the old 9.3x72R D , 9.3x72R E, and English 360, in an attempt to derive a case( cartridge) that would fit the most old chambers possible. I don't think I refered to an 8x72R Norm., but did say The 8x72R was based on the 9.3x72R Norm. case (this may not be precise depending on when it was normalized, but that is the case you should use). There is a temptation to size a 9.3x72R case to 8mm and use it as is. This is a mistake, the case will lengthen in sizing and must be trimmed. I sized a case in a 32-40 file trim die and fireformed ( untrimmed). The chamber then showed where the case should be trimmed to( there was an obvious constriction at the end of the "chamber"). I trimmed the case to a length that fit the chamber, and in my case this was about 2.840"+. Your chamber cast showed a shorter length, but if you find a useable case length, in a manner similar to that I used, and use bullets that fit the chamber/barrel; it makes no practical difference what name you call it by. After all, you can't go to the Mall-Mart and buy ammo anyway. BTW, COTW has several mistakes that are not always clear until you compare their dimensions with actual rifles, and the confusion surrounding the S&S name is another mistake, brought about by the case's shape. Also, there are a great many nominal calibers not included in COTW. Are you having fun yet?
Mike

[Firpo]

I just sat down to reread your previous post Mike as I was still getting a bit confused however after reading this last one I’m back to thinking I’m on the right track (I’ve ordered 9.3X72r Norma cases). Yes, I understand as I make an 8mm case out of a 9mm case the extra material has to go somewhere which I assume would be in length. My plan is to order the correct pilot for my RCBS rotary trimmer and use that to trim the cases to the correct length for my chamber. Also, today I was going to call CH4D to see if they have “8X72r Sauer” dies, they are shown on their website, but would like to double check with you. Would that be the correct die set? Sounds like while it’s called a Sauer mistakenly in the US, but is actually the 8.1X72r Brenneke, I should order the Sauer.

Aaaaahhhhhhhhhh!

Yes, I am having fun.

Thank you again Mike

[algmule]

Hello

I don’t know if this https://forum.cartridgecollectors.or...r-sohn/23717/5 is of interest but I found it interesting reading. I don't believe this is the cartridge you are looking for as the drawing does not fit the rifling-measurement of your casting but it was the only 8 mm cartridge I could find that had a 70 mm case and looked like your casting. If you click the drawing in the link and then click it again it is enlarged.

Also: the following is from a 1902-article

”Universalbüchse des Berufsjägers
Bekanntlich wurden in Deutschland in den letzten Jahren von den Firmen W. Brenneke und Thieme & Schlegelmilch in Suhl achtmillimetrige Kugelrohre eingeführt, aus welchen mit derselben Visirung auf 80 m Hochwild, Rehwild, Kaninchen, Auerhahn, Birkhahn u. a, …………”

Kind regards
Peter

[sharps4590]

To sort of clear up the age of the rifle versus the cartridge, the rifle barrel has been re-lined. If that was the reason for the repair mark I'm at a loss to explain why it doesn't reflect final proof on the barrel flat. Only thing I could think of was the liner was proofed before and those proofs are inside the original barrel. That should be prima fascia evidence I don't have a clue.

Firpo, CH-4D might be able to answer your question about the dies over the phone. Have your case dimensions at hand and perhaps they can quickly compare them to their drawing. I suspect what they're calling the 8 X 72R Sauer is your cartridge but at a pairof "C" notes per I'd check also. CH4D is very good to work with.

[mike ford]

Firpo,
I load my 8x72R with Lyman 8x57 dies and a 30-30 shell holder I opened up enough to accept a 9.3x72R case. I just take the expander button( made for .323" bullet)out when I size the cases, and the die takes the neck down enough to hold the .318" bullet. Basically I'm just using them as neck sizing dies; I fireformed the cases rather than die sizing them to fit the chamber. CH-4D may very well sell the correct dies as 8x72r Sauer, every one else makes that mistake. If you sent them the chamber cast, or some fired cases( load some with bullets for that, to be sure they fill out) they can make what you need. I am perfectly happy with the 8x57 dies( I also load 8x57, 8x57I, 8x57 IR, 8x57 IRS, and 8x57R/360 with the same dies). Even though you said above, you had ordered 9.3x72R Sauer cases, Norma only has 9.3 x72 cases in the Norm. format. However they have 9.3x74R, from which I make my 9.3x72R Sauer cases, so there may still be some confusion. If you get the wrong cases and they won't take them back, someone here will likely buy them from you, so don't worry. It's all a learning exercise and I've found that with a lathe you can make what you need, a lot of times, and not have to wait for delivery( pilots for my trimmer is example).
Mike

[mike ford]

aelgmule,
I found your link interesting reading. If you note dimensions closely, you will note that some cartridges based on the English 360 case have about .433" head diameter, and some have about .427" head diameter. The drawings I have seen of the conical Sauer cartridges( 6.5x58 R, 8x48R, 8x58R, 9x58 1/2R, etc,) have a .433" head. The 8x72R, however is usually shown with a .427"head. Of course since you have to make any of the Sauer cartridges that are longer than 303 Savage( .433") from either 9.3x72R (,427") or 38-55 (.422"), the confusion continues. However, they did discuss 80mm long 8mm cartridges,so Firpo's rifle may be that nominal caliber, after all.
Mike

[Firpo]

I read the link too Peter and appreciated the explanation. As for the dies, waiting on CH4D to send me a drawing when he gets a chance and will compare to my casting. Thanks to everyone for hanging in there with me, just about every part of this is new and it seems like about 25% of the information sticks in my head at a time. I’ll get there I’m sure, with a little perseverance and some help from my friends I’m thinking I could really get this thing running. .
Apparently COTW isn’t always the most dependable source of information but right now that’s about all I have. In my book it says the 8X72r Sauer is supposed to have a .344 neck measurement and after crunching the numbers I’m thinking that the 9.3X72r cases are going to work out just fine with my bore slugging at .323.

Neck diameter called out .344”
Case wall thickness .011X’s 2= .022”
That leaves .322” to work with.

Thanks also for the 30-30 she’ll holder suggestion Mike. I tried mine and it couldn’t fit any better. My next challenge is learning how to develop a load for this old rifle. The action is clearly made for black powder while the cartridge for which it’s chambered is smokeless. Hmmmmm, where does a guy start while minimizing the risk that he’ll blow up his new toy? Should I figure out what the correct amount of Pyrodex (can’t get BP ffg) would be to get a slightly compressed load? Never loaded BP but it’s my understanding that’s pretty much what I should go for. That or do I try H4895 which is about the slowest burning smokeless and allows for a 40% reduction without concern. Orrrrrrrrr is there another path I should take with Unique, Bullseye or SR4759. How do you guys go about developing a load when there isn’t any reference material? Another thought that I had was developing a load per the chamber pressures, either in CUP or PSI, whichever I could find but so far my search has turned up nothing. There must be a source somewhere that would let me know for instance what the chamber pressure was for an 8X58r Sauer which I understand was a black powder cartridge. If I knew that I could attempt to use that as a guideline as a “not to exceed” number.

[mike ford]

Firpo,
I used 3031 and 4895 (mil. pulldown) when I was working on mine, but if I were doing it now, I think I would try 5744. I used 170 grain( .321", sized to .318) which tended to hold the pressure down, somewhat, compared to 196 grain bullets.
Mike

[Firpo]

Hi Guys,

Thought I’d write to catch everyone up on things. I have the 9.3X72r brass headed my way which should be here this week, most likely Wednesday. Also ordered the two die “Sauer” CH4D set from Buffalo Arms which with shipping was right at $200. Then I had to deal with the .318 vs .323 at which my bore slugs. For that I stopped by a local shop who had a scrap RCBS die I’m using along with an expander ball suited for the .323 diameter bullet. The ball I have is .322” so I’ll need to trim .001 or so off for a correct fit. Am I right in that .002” under bullet diameter is good?

What else??????????? After doing some volume comparisons I’ve learned that a 30-06 case is right at the same volume as the 9.3X72r case so I started using that as a guide for possible loads to be considered. I do realize it will change a bit when the case is sized down to 8mm but it did give me a place to start. Here is the load data from my Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and it’s looking like H4895 is coming in at the lowest pressure, that being 14,400CUP. Not sure if it holds water but I read that a good guide is to keep pressures under 20,000CUP for old black powder actions which this does handily by 28%.

I also grabbed the pilots for both the 9.3 and 8mm measurements for my RCBS rotary case trimmer. With that I’m not sure what else I may need. Picked up another shell holder just because I find it a pain to look through all my die boxes trying to find where the one I’m needing may be hiding. Big thanks again to sharps who sent me a bunch of bullets to get me started. The way things are going I could have cartridges loaded in a week or two. Anyone want to volunteer to be the first to pull the trigger?

I’ll be sure to keep you all posted on how things progress and thank you again for everyone's help. You guys are great!

[Axel E]

Firpo, though volume may be similar, the 8x72R was loaded to much lower pressures than the .30-06. For a start I would rather use American 8mm Mauser data.

[sharps4590]

Pressure at 14K CUP from a bottleneck case of similar capacity should be fine in his gun. Unless I'm mistaken it will be even lower in the straight taper case as compared to the bottleneck of the -06. Even the old Trapdoor is good for 28K and he's at half that.

[mike ford]

Since the actual nominal caliber is still in question, I hesitate to say you should go to higher pressure. However, I believe the 8x72R was always a smokeless powder cartridge, the case shape notwithstanding. I'm not sure about 8x70R. I'm a little bit "wobbly" because all the 8x72s I have had anything to do with, had .318" barrel so I don't really think it was "born" as 8x72R. You should listen to what your sights tell you, unless there is evidence that one or both have been changed. We have good luck with 5744, because it does well with loads that don't nearly fill the case.
Mike

[Firpo]

Hi Axel,

Point taken on using the Mauser as a starting point however in my manual the lowest pressure listed for 8X57JS is 19,900CUP and the load I found is at 14,400, a 28% drop in pressure. Also, not sure if I explained my thinking well. The reason I went with the 30-06 was reasoning that a case of similar volume shooting a bullet of the same weight would share similar chamber pressure.
I also just checked Accurate’s load data pdf and while they do list the 5744 powder it omits the chamber pressures. In all this please don’t think I’m being argumentative, I’m simply questioning so that I can learn. Do any of you know if a loading manual for cast bullets that lists loads using Accurate Powders? If so I’d love to add it to my library. Oh, you may like to know that I took the 9.3X72r case sharps sent me and tried a couple loads, 28 grains H4895 and 20 grains SR4759 and with the bullet seated to the crimp groove the result was the same for both, that being a gap of approximately 1”.

[sharps4590]

I don't believe that 1 inch is an issue for either powder, nor am I aware of a Western Powders manual for cast bullets and 5744. Recently I e-mailed them about the 8 X 58R Danish Krag I've been working with and bingo, they got back to me by the next day with data. I was impressed. It didn't shoot worth spit but I had data...lol!!

[mike ford]

Firpo,
I didn't think you were being argumentative, I just thought you were using your head. BTW, for a lot of the old cartridges we load for, about the only way to get started is to compare them with known similar cartridges, just as you are doing. A lot depends on whether you intend to hunt with the gun. You can do a lot of fun shooting with more or less standard loads of Unique, 4198, Red Dot, or SR 4759; but you may want something else for hunting. You are the only one that can decide what you want. Have fun, that is what it is all about. I'm hoping to have a 10x42R ready for turtle season, but carpenter bee season will be here first.
Mike