Is this a Simson or a Kettner

[R. Marshall]

I picked this combination gun up on Gunbroker and it was advertised as a Simson. I believe it's was sold by Kettner. It is chambered in 16ga over 9x58 1/2 S&S. Here are a few general pictures.

Thanks,
Robert

[R. Marshall]

some pictures

[R. Marshall]

more pictures

[R. Marshall]

more pictures

[R. Marshall]

last ones. Thanks

[mike ford]

Robert,
I don't claim to know what the small initials on the barrels mean( I do recognize the barrel makers logo, however), but others do and will likely weigh in, shortly. Kettner did mostly retail guns made by others, so it is entirely possible that you are correct. If you decide to load for it, I believe you would be well satisfied with the project and it would be a worthwhile endeavor. I suggest you post photos of the breech face , if you can find any markings there.
Mike

[R. Marshall]

Robert,
I don't claim to know what the small initials on the barrels mean( I do recognize the barrel makers logo, however), but others do and will likely weigh in, shortly. Kettner did mostly retail guns made by others, so it is entirely possible that you are correct. If you decide to load for it, I believe you would be well satisfied with the project and it would be a worthwhile endeavor. I suggest you post photos of the breech face , if you can find any markings there.
Mike

Thanks Mike, I'll take a few more pictures at lunch.

[R. Marshall]

no more marking found.

[R. Marshall]

a few more pic's

[algmule]

Hello

Robert,
not that I know what it is/means but here is a somewhat similar marking on the barrel of a Remo Popular.
a2.jpg

Kind regards
Peter

[R. Marshall]

Hello

Robert,
not that I know what it is/means but here is a somewhat similar marking on the barrel of a Remo Popular.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4007[/ATTACH]

Kind regards
Peter

Thanks for the info Peter. I shot some RST shells though it this afternoon. It is lite and handles great. The barrel length is 26 3/4"

[Axel E]

The gun was most likely made 1912 to 1915.
There is not a single mark or detail on it that would point to Simson as the maker. I suspect a common deplorable habit on internet auctions: Instead of offering a "noname" item, sellers tentatively attach a well known name as "probable". Doing so will provoke more interest.
Unfortunately the Kettner adress on the barrel is obscured by the claw mount base. So the first name is illegible. There were two gunmaking companies named Kettner, both with adresses in Köln and Suhl. Though founded by two brothers, they were rivals in fact. This always led to a lot of confusion all the time of their existence. BTW, there is similar confusion with the Heyms in Suhl, the Reebs in Bonn and many other names in the German guntrade.
First came Franz Kettner. Founded in Köln by master gunsmith Franz I, 1808 – 1873, in 1835, it was run by consecutive generations: Franz II, 1840 -1913, Franz III, 1875 – 1963, Franz IV, 1908 – 2006, until a Franz V closed down the Köln gunshop about 2010. Franz II had his guns made by the Christian Sturm factory in Suhl. Franz III served his apprenticeship there and was a close friend of Benhard Merkel, 1874 – 1954, Suhl, shop opened in 1905, who made many guns for Franz Kettner. Franz III had a branch in Suhl before WW1 and bought the Sturm factory in 1920. He lived in Suhl most of his life, though his factory was expropriated in 1945.
The better known "Kettner" company was founded by Franz I's brother Eduard, 1811 – 1888, not a gunsmith, but listed as a merchand, in 1865 as "Eduard Kettner, Köln". This company developed into a mail order house. In 1884 son Franz O.J.Kettner opened a branch and factory in Suhl too. In 1916 the Suhl factory was sold to Theodor Bergmann, but an office in Suhl still organized the making of "Eduard Kettner" guns by the Suhl guntrade. In 1925 Franz O.J. Kettner sold the "Eduard Kettner , Köln" business to Dornheim, "Gecado". The further fate and decline of "Eduard Kettner" was already described elsewhere on this Forum.
As this o/u combination shows somewhat unusual sculpting of the action and nice, tastefull engraving, it was most likely made for Franz Kettner, Köln and Suhl, either at the Sturm factory or by Bernhard Merkel, IMHO.

[R. Marshall]

Thanks Axel, I was drawn to the gun by it's looks first and the name Simson second so it is not to big a let down that it is not a Simson. What is the mark below the pistol cap? The stock maker stamp or inspector stamp?

Thanks,
Robert

[R. Marshall]

Robert,
I don't claim to know what the small initials on the barrels mean( I do recognize the barrel makers logo, however), but others do and will likely weigh in, shortly. Kettner did mostly retail guns made by others, so it is entirely possible that you are correct. If you decide to load for it, I believe you would be well satisfied with the project and it would be a worthwhile endeavor. I suggest you post photos of the breech face , if you can find any markings there.
Mike

Mike, who was the barrel maker? I do plan to have my brother reload some 9x58 1/2 S&S. Info is so limited on the reloading of this round if anyone has any info on it please post it or PM me the info. I may do my best to try to scope this one.

[mike ford]

Robert,
I think it was Schilling Forge, the "S" enclosed in a "lozenge"(?) is often found on rifles from different makers. BTW the reason the markings on your and algemule's rifles look similar is because they are proof marks placed by the same Proof House (Suhl), and not either of the makers ( nor Peter's Remo). A friend of mine loaded for his Ed.Kettner double rifle in 9x58 1/2R, so I am only a little bit familiar with it. He used .358" bullets, because that was the groove diameter as shown by slugging the barrels. He used shortened 9.3x72R cases, but I am always hesitant to cut that much off the 72mm long case, when I don't know if I may find a rifle that needs the full length case. Of course, using them is strictly a personal decision. If I had a rifle in this caliber, I would use original length( 2.125-2.130") 38-55 Winchester cases with the bullets "loaded out" to make up for the slightly shorter length. The rims might need to be adjusted for diameter or thickness, depending on rim recess in the particular rifle. For powder types and charge weights, your brother can be guided by the British 360 2 1/4"( 9.3x57R), 38-55, .358(38)/30-30 wildcat, or similar obsolete cartridges. Note that the above 9.3x57R is not a rimmed version of the 9.3x57 Mauser and powder charges for that cartridge must not be used.
Mike