Welke Sidelock Drilling?

[jillandsam303]

GGCA friends, As a Christmas present to myself, I'm considering a beautiful drilling from Welke, proofed 11/35 in Berlin.

But I've never heard anything about the maker. Has anyone?

Thanks Sam

[ellenbr]

Berlin didn't have a proof facility?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Appears to be a reproof in 1935?

http://www.gunsinternational.com/gun...n_id=100936918

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[ellenbr]

Seems to resemble a Sauer Modell 25a but I do not see any Sauer process marks?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[Axel E]

Even Kellner & Pape's "BÜLEX" has nothing about A.Welke, Berlin, except two addresses: Weinbergsweg 19 and/or Friedrichstr.13. Welke certainly did not make the drilling himself, but he merely retailed it. As usual, he had the gun (or part of it) made by the Suhl guntrade.
At first glance this sidelock drilling with the 1935 proof date was a bit puzzling to me. The whole style of the gun, with the round pistol grip , the unusualtreatment of the fences with the accentuated Greener crossbolt position and the bold engraving rather point to pre-WW1. A closer look at the proofmarks reveals the story: The barrels were proofed once only in Suhl, 1935. So they were new, unaltered then. But the watertable of the action body shows a crown/R = repair proofmark too. Something was changed from the original configuration, making a reproof of the action body necessary. IMHO Welke had made and fitted by the Suhl guntrade a new, more modern barrel assembly to this fine, but already old sidelock drilling in 1935. Such an operation was quite often done before WW2. The new rifle barrel was now for the up to date 8x57IR, while the new shot tubes are for the then modern 16-70 = 2 ¾" loads. Obvioudly the new barrels were fitted with two scopes, a long, probably 8x one for low light, longer range use and a small, maybe 1x to 2.5x one for driven game.
The semblance to a S&S 25a is very superficial. Note the position of the screw holding the sidelocks. It also resembles , but not quite the same, a Chr.Funk model IV , some early Krieghoffs and Greifelt sidelock drillings. Unless other marks are found inside the action, any Suhl gunmaker may have been responsible.

[ellenbr]

The adornment / addressing of the fences are what one sees on a J.J. Reeb, W. Foerster Berlin and a couple others.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[mike ford]

It has sort of a Greifelt look to me. The treatment of the clawmount bases is entirely new to me, but very fine work and a joy to see.
Sam,
In my unsolicited opinion, the quality of this drilling speaks for itself and far outweighs the lack of knowing who built it. You can be proud to own it.
Mike

[algmule]

Hello
Would not a lengthening of chambers from 65 mm to 70 mm have required a reproof? I've seen repeated "information" on at least two different forums telling that an encircled gauge marking means the chamber/s is/are not longer than 65 mm. I always thought encircled gauge marking meant a chamber was not shorter than 65 mm. If indeed encircled gauge marking meant the chamber were not longer than 65 mm why bother to mark the thing with it and couple it with the marking 70 mm if it were a new barrel set?

And yes, I realize that if the standard were 65 mm there was no reason for making the chamber longer than that but I also see that it could well have been, let's say, 66,8 mm or any other lenght not just shorter than 65 mm.

I have a Welke junior participating in a shooting contest for hunters in 1936, at Wannsee where I believe there was a "Schießstand" (spelling). Another familiar name participating was a Scherell. If this was O.G. Scherell I don't know.

Kind regards
Peter

[jillandsam303]

Axel, I can always rely on you for an amazing amount of valuable information about my drillings! If you were to guess, which maker do you think is most likely to have been responsible for the action: Funk, Krieghoff or Greifelt? Thanks again and Merry Christmas.

[jillandsam303]

Mike, thanks! I'm always happy to have your "unsolicited opinion" Your thoughts and information is very valuable to me and I think I'll love this weapon. Merry Christmas!

[jillandsam303]

Raimey, is it possible J.J. Reeb or his son Philip is the maker of this gun? If Axel is correct and the action was created prior to 1935, could it be as old as 1909 when J.J. retired?

Johann Jakob Reeb (1843-1924) started his business in 1870 at Josephstrasse 49 in Bonn, taking over the business of Ewqld Becher. In 1872 he was located at Dreieck 6 in Bonn and in 1877 added an additional workshop and major retail business with guns and accessories in 1877. In 1883 he moved to Münsterplatz 17 and is listed as Hofbüchenmacher since 1887 and as a gun manufacturer. He outfits two expeditions for the Africa explorer Schilling. He retires from the business in 1909.

Philipp Reeb, Hofbüchenmacher in Bonn. His sons, Philipp and Hans continued the business. Hans became a master gunmaker in 1911 and carried on the business under the name J.J. Reeb, Jr. at Poststrasse Q012.

[Axel E]

Would not a lengthening of chambers from 65 mm to 70 mm have required a reproof? I've seen repeated "information" on at least two different forums telling that an encircled gauge marking means the chamber/s is/are not longer than 65 mm. I always thought encircled gauge marking meant a chamber was not shorter than 65 mm. If indeed encircled gauge marking meant the chamber were not longer than 65 mm why bother to mark the thing with it and couple it with the marking 70 mm if it were a new barrel set?

Yes, lengthening chambers from 65mm = 2 ½" to 70mm = 2 ¾" would have required reproof. Since there is no crown/R reproof mark on the barrels of this drilling, they were chambered for the 70mm case length originally, another hint to the 1930s vintage.
No, the circled gauge numbers do not denote 65mm caase length alone. Until 1939 the circled 16 means the gun takes 16 gauge shells, diameter and rim dimensions standardised in 1913. The circled gauge number stood for the cartridge gauge only, disregarding case length. The allowable case length had to be marked separately beside the circled gauge number, as here: (16) 70 mm. Exception: To this day the once standard 65 mm = 2 ½" case length need not be marked, neither on guns nor on cartridges. But all longer chambers or loads have to, like 12 – 70 = 2 ¾" or 20 – 76 = 3". (The British 12 – 2" "pigmy" was unknown on the continent). So a cartidge unmarked as to case length is always 65 mm, usable in any longer chamber too. Any gun with the circled gauge number only was proofed for 65 mm cartridges and may be used with such loads only, even if the actual chambers are slightly longer. (Another exception here: European plastic hull shells marked 67.5 mm are expressly designed to be used in 65 mm chambers too). The combination on this drilling "circled 16 (the cartridge), 16 (actual bore diameter), 70 mm" without a repair proof mark is not a sign of chambers lenthened afterwards, but of the original chambering of the barrels.

[mike ford]

Sam,
Thanks for the Merry Christmas Wishes, I hope the same for you, yours, and everyone in the GGCA, and a Happy New Year too.
Mike

[Axel E]

My "Phillipp Reeb, Bonn" boxlock drilling (see "Waidmannsheil #54") shows a similar treatment of the fences with the accentuated Greener crossbolt.

I have also seen such fences on guns signed by Geyger and Foerster, both Berlin too. Nevertheless, such fences are quite rare on German guns. All I have seen seem to date pre-WW1. All these guns were apparently made, at least in part, by the Suhl guntrade for the retailers. As I wrote above,"Unless other marks are found inside the action, any Suhl gunmaker may have been responsible."
About the Reebs in Bonn: After Johann Jakob Reeb passed away, the brothers Hans and Phillipp split up: Phillip Reeb traded as "Phillipp Reeb, Hofbüchsenmacher" from the original address, Münsterplatz 17a. Hans traded under "J.J.Reeb" and "Reebohaus" from Poststrasse 21. Though both brothers were competitors, both had work done by the Suhl engraver Hugo Weiss. One of the companies still exists, but as "Phillipp Reeb, Ladies Fashion, owner Robert Ley, Wenzelgasse 3, Bonn".

[ellenbr]

Yeah, I forgot about the beloved O. Geyger of Berlin. Also the chambers were # +/- 2.5mm & I have always assumed they were +2.5mm before something was considered an alteration . So one could easily be 65+2.5mm and that gets you around the proverbial 67.5 mm. The receiver is pre-WWI but the tubeset is post WWI as it does not wear any prior touchmarks. So a new tubeset was added.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse