Need to identify 16 Gauge Drilling

[rkerber]

I bought a 16 Gauge Drilling that I was told is a Theime & Schlegelmich. It has a caliber of 10mm with a ? on the tag. It has an under-lever action and is hammer-less. I can't find anything on it to indicate that it is in fact a Theime & Schlegelmich, or the year made.

Marking include: DRGM 58427 / B / S / 35 / 55 / 6749 / Krupp Suider Steel.

Thank you for any information you might have on this shotgun.

[sharps4590]

If it is a Thieme & Schlegelmilch I believe it should be so marked on the locks. Mine is. Is it stamped "Nimrod" any place on it?

When you say "underlever", do you mean a Jones underlever or a Roux underlever? As you mention underlever is it safe to assume this is a hammer gun?

You should slug the bore and cast the chamber. I don't know if you can determine the cartridge any other way. Even then you might not be able to identify it. T&S had at least one proprietary cartridge I'm aware of so there could be more.

The DRGM is one of a couple different types of patents that were available in Germany and I'm not knowledgeable enough to speak to it. The remaining numbers and letters...I have an idea but clear, legible pictures of the drilling in its entirety and of all marks and stamps is going to be necessary to correctly identify them. In short, we need more information.

[mike ford]

rkerber,
The 67,49 is the bore( not groove or bullet) diameter, expressed in gauge measurement. This was about 10.41mm, and the measurement in gauge means the gun was proofed before 1912, when they switched to mm measurement. It also means it was proofed after early 1893, when the proof law became effective. If the B has a crown over it, it is the mark for a single definitive proof, using the provisional proof load. If the S has a crown over it, it is the proof mark for a shot barrel. As Sharps 4590 stated, clear photos will be required to fully understand the markings. Sometimes they are marked as to proof dates, but the 35 or 55 wouldn't fit with the gauge marking of bore diameter. Also, there should be other marks, such as a crown G. The barrels are made of Krupp steel, but it likely says "Stahl", instead. "Suider" is not a word I recognize and it was likely misread. The bore diameter is only a measurement, and has only a little relationship with the nominal cartridge it used. As Sharps 4590 said, it will be necessary for you to make, or have someone else make a chamber cast, and "slug" the bore, in order to identify it.
Mike

[Axel E]

Sorry, but of the pre-1935 DRGMs only the headings are preserved. DRGM Number 58427 was issued May 7, 1896, to Otto Helfricht of Zella –Mehlis for a "coil spring working as main lock spring and sear spring". That's the only info available at the time without photos of the gun, but it seems to point to a Zella – Mehlis maker instead of a Suhl one. There were no less than 40 "Helfrichts" working in the Zella - Mehlis guntrade over the years, 4 named "Otto" .

[rkerber]

Thank you, I will take some photos and post them soon. It is hammerless and I don't know the difference between a Jones underlever and a Roux underlever. I can't find any underlever actions that are hammerless on the internet.

[rkerber]

I am not sure I am posting the photos correctly.....this is a test.

[rkerber]

DSCN0427.jpg
DSCN0421.jpgDSCN0426.jpg

[rkerber]

DSCN0419.jpg
DSCN0429.jpg
DSCN0431.jpg

[rkerber]

DSCN0417.jpg
DSCN0423.jpg

[rkerber]

DSCN0422.jpg
DSCN0430.jpg

I hope these photos will help.

[rkerber]

Mike, You are correct, it is "Stahl" on the barrel. "Krupp Scher Stahl" is what it look like.

[rkerber]

Mike, you are correct. It appears to have "Kruppscher Stahl" on the Barrel.

[ellenbr]

Looks like the Z-M mechanic named Emil Barthelmes' worn trademark & work. I've seen examples wearing the name of W. Napp & others that were similar.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[Axel E]

The (back to back) "EB" trademark of Emil Barthelmes, Meininger Str. 11, Zella – Mehlis, is clearly visible in the photo of the lockwork cover, above "DRGM". The company was run by Hubertus Barthelmes in 1918. In Waidmannsheil! #57 another such drilling, made by Barthelmes for retail by Valentin Kern, Nuremberg, is shown. Barthelmes used the old, 1860s, striker lockwork of Stahl, Suhl, not only on drillings, but on shot – and combination guns too, up to the 1920s. He merely replaced Stahl's C-shaped mainsprings with the coil springs to Otto Helfricht's DRGM.

[rkerber]

Just to confirm, this is in fact a Theime & Schlegelmich drilling?

Also, any idea of value?