Need to identify 16 Gauge Drilling

[sharps4590]

I would consider that a Roux action with a dolls head extension...but I may consider incorrectly. A Jones underlever or, as the English usually referred to them, "double screw grip" would have a knob on the bottom of the lever and it would ordinarily be pulled to the right, unlocking the barrels.

[Axel E]

Just to confirm, this is in fact a Theime & Schlegelmich drilling?

Definitely NOT! It's a typical Emil Barthelmes, Zella -Mehlis made drilling. Thieme & Schlegelmilch, tm Nimrod, was a renowned Suhl gunmaker. Your gun is just as related to a Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling as a Savage 340 bolt action rifle is to a Winchester 70 bolt action rifle or a Toyota is to a Mercedes .

[mike ford]

rkerber,
I'm sorry, but I don't see any signs to support the idea that it is a Theime& Schlegelmich. If it were mine, I would call it a Emil Barthelmes instead.
Mike
Axel,
I guess we were writing at the same time, sorry.
Mike

[Diz]

Looks like a single bite Roux action to me with a dolls head as Sharps pointed out. I think Axel is correct about it being an Emil Barthelmes too. There doesn't seem to be any indication otherwise. Thanks, Diz

[rkerber]

Thank you, it is not what the seller said it was. I only paid $600 for it so I hope I got my money's worth.

Thanks, Rick

[mike ford]

rkerber,
Your drilling is unusual enough and in good enough shape, I think you got your money's worth. If you become dissatisfied, I will give your money back, and even pay for the shipping.
Mike

[Diz]

rkerber,

I think you did OK with this one. If the bores are good then you did very well. Get a chamber cast and slug the bore, then come back with that info. A nice sketch with dimensions from the cast would be best and there are many here that can help identify the proper cartridge and how to get it shooting again. Best of luck with it.

Diz

[rkerber]

I have ordered the necessary things to do a casting but I am heading to Hawaii in two days so I will get back to this in a few weeks.

[ellenbr]

Axel:

Think you could toss us a couple wafers of manna from above regarding the existence of brace of jagged encircled Ks(Kelber/Klett) stamps coupled with the Crown over interlaced backwards E&B; what task would EB perform that the K mechanic wouldn't have already performed? Or is the Crown over interlaced backwards E&B just a quality control stamp for Emil Barthelemes?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

[Axel E]

Raimey, in my files I have photos of some more such Emil Barthelmes drillings. All are marked with both the "K in ragged circle" and the "EB" mark on the barrels too. That "K" mark is obviously a barrelmaker's mark, as it is found on guns by many gunmakers. I tend to take it as a "speaking logo" for one or more of the barrelmakers named Klett. "Klette" is the German word for a burr, those nasty fruits that stick to your hair and clothing if you are touching the plants in the bushes. EB, Emil Bathelmes, was a gunmaker who used barrel assemblies bought in from the Kletts. His EB mark is found under all barrels of these Stahl type striker lock drillings. The crown over EB is on one proofed 1907, while not on another made for Kern, Nuremberg, proofed 1914. Maybe Barthelmes aped Sauer & Sohn's "quality crown"?
BTW, the 1907 drilling still shows "DRGM", but without a number, while the later ones do not. Helfricht's DRGM 58427 of 1896 had expired in 1902, if not earlier.

[rkerber]

The rifle bore is 10.7 MM and the Chamber is 11.7 MM. Any idea on what the cartridge is?

Thanks for any help.

Rick

[rkerber]

The rifle bore is 10.7 MM (.43 inches) and the Chamber is 11.7 MM (.46 inches). Any idea on what the cartridge is?

Thanks for any help.

Rick

[mike ford]

Rick,
I'm sorry, but, there is no practical way to ID the cartridge from the information given. Drillings of this age were often chambered for cartridges in what is known the LK series. You gave no length and the base diameter( presuming that is what you mean by "chamber") doesn't match. What type measuring instrument did you use? It would be helpful if you could post a drawing(sketch) of the chamber cast, with dimensions to .001". Also, by "bore" do you mean the bore diameter or the groove diameter.
Mike

[rkerber]

One more try....

Chamber Cast = Bore is .4385 inches or 11.07 mm.
Grove is .4245 inches or 10.79 mm.

Cartridge is .4655 inches or 11.82 mm and is 2.083 inches or 52.92 mm from the base to where it starts to reduce...

See diagram. DSCN0448.jpg

[mike ford]

rkerber,
After a fairly diligent search, I was unable to ID the cartridge with the dimensions given. However, with these dimensions, I believe you can make cases from 30-40 Krag or 303 British. For bullets, you should be able to size 43 Spanish bullets to fit, although you may have trouble chambering a cartridge with a .439 bullet seated in that case. For what it's worth, you have the bore and groove diameters reversed. The bore is the diameter of the bored and reamed hole, before rifling. The groove diameter is the distance across the grooves after the rifling is cut. Confusion often comes because the "slug" is backward from the barrel. Axel may have an idea to ID the nominal caliber.
Mike