Heinrich Krieghoff M98, help needed

[kammerherren]

Recently I was offered this rifle for a very reasonable price, so I bought it even the only pictures I had available were rubbish. I liked the stock and the full ribbed barrel, so I gambled, due to the reasonable price it was hardly a gamble at all….. When I received it I found one really big flaw. The magazine is not original to the rifle. As you can see in the pictures, the stock, action and barrel have the same serial number, so they belong together. This is the first really old Heinrich Krieghoff rifle based on a M98 action I have ever seen, so I’m not familiar with them. My first guess was that the action was made by Mauser Oberndorf, but based on the different stamps found on the action; I don’t believe this is the case. Anyone feel like trying to shed some light on this action? The chambering are 6,5x54MS. I posted a similar thread at another forum, but nobody was able to provide any useful information, hence I try here.

I have very limited literature available about German sporting rifled produced outside of Oberndorf, so I really have no idea when this rifle is built.

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Edit August 2017: Added pictures due to Photobucket problems.

[kammerherren]

Some more pictures.

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Edit August 2017: Added pictures due to Photobucket problems.

[kammerherren]

Even more.....

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Edit August 2017: Added pictures due to Photobucket problems.

[mike ford]

kammerherren,
Have you fired the rifle with 6.5x54MS ammo? By the markings, it should be chambered for 6.5X 55 Swedish, which I thought was also common in Norway. The 6.5x55 is considerably larger than the 6.5x54MS, in both diameter and length, so the expansion of the case should be obvious, if fired with 6.5x54MS ammo. I believe the rifle was built in the early to mid 1920s from a surplus WW1 military Mauser, with the receiver ring cleaned of markings, and a new barrel installed. It was (and likely still is) chambered in 6.5x55, for marketing in either Sweden or Norway. If it were intended for Germany, it would have likely been chambered in 6.5x57, or maybe 6.5x58 or 6.5x54Mauser. I wouldn't consider a different magazine as necessarily being a "big flaw". The "phobia" for matching parts doesn't really mean much when the rifle has been built from a military action, with a new barrel properly installed and headspaced. The markings behind the recoil lug are from the military Arsenal workers that performed different operations on that particular action. There is no index of these marks, so there is no way to "read" them now.
Mike

[kammerherren]

Thank you Mike, this was useful. I have not fired the rifle, but I did test both a 6,5x55 and a 6,5x54MS cartridge. (Both factory loads). Only 6,5x54MS fitted the chamber. The seller had some ammunition available for the rifle too, so I am rather confident it is the correct cartridge. Regarding popularity of 6,5x55 in Norway, you are absolutely correct, it is THE cartridge here, for several good reasons. If you have a look at the last picture, you will see that the fit of the magazine is rather poor, but as long as the rifle is assembled it looks OK. As a gun collector it’s always desirable to have a matching gun, but as you say, if this is a rifle put together by different parts, it’s quite close, and good enough. I did pay less than 300,-USD, so I’m happy with it.

[Nathaniel Myers]

I would not necessarily believe that it is 6.5x54 because the previous owner provided that ammo with it. I have bought several rifles that were described as the wrong cartridge and the wrong cartridge was provided with the rifle.

I am sure another person of authority will chime in, but I am inclined to agree with Mr. Ford, the markings point to 55 for the chamber dimensions.

As always a chamber cast and slugging the bore is recommended.

[kammerherren]

I hear what you say about the chambering, and I totally agree that you can’t trust the previous owner. When that is said, I really was unable to even get close to closing the action when loading a brand new Norma 6,5x55 cartridge. An old Kynoch 6,5x54MS on the other hand felt very correct and fitted very well. I don’t intend to shoot this rifle so I will most likely leave it for now. There are other rifles that are higher up on the prioritization list. I will create a couple more threads with some other rifles I am curious about.

[mike ford]

kammerherren,
I can see that the magazine box doesn't seem to fit the inlet, but there is no way to know ,for sure, why different things were done to this rifle during it's hundred year history. Absent photos of the entire rifle, there is no way to be sure; but my unverified opinion is that the mod 98 mag assy. may have been replaced with a mod 96 or some other midlength assy., possibly because some former owner wanted the double set triggers. If it was originally made(using mil. action) for export, it likely had a single trigger. I agree that a chamber cast and "slugging" the bore is necessary to determine the chambering, since it is in question. However, I offer the following: if a proper cartridge is dropped into the chamber of a 98 mauser, the bolt will not close on it, because the rim will not be under the extractor if it wasn't fed from the magazine; on the other hand a smaller diameter cartridge( such as 6.5x54MS) might slip pass the extractor allowing the bolt to close. Since I didn't see how you tried to chamber the 6.5x55 , I can't say exactly what happened. Like Nathanial, I have bought more than one rifle with mis-described chambering, including at least two that had some object in the chamber, causing the problem. I'm convinced that we will finally solve the puzzle.
Mike

[kammerherren]

I am aware of the fact that an M98 needs to be fed from the magazine, so that’s what I did. As you will see in the two first pictures below, that’s how far the bolt is able to move forward until it stops when using a 6,5x55 cartridge. I agree that the next step should be a chamber cast to find out for sure. I’ve never done that myself, so I’ll see if I can have someone help me out at some point.

The next couple of pictures show the rifle more detailed. Quite cute little thing actually. A cheap, but nice piece of German history that I will take good care of. (Please note the decorative duvet cover….)

Thank you both so much for assistance and advice.

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Edit August 2017: Added pictures due to Photobucket problems.

[mike ford]

kammerheren,
Now I'm stumped, unless there is something in the chamber, and if that were the case, I wouldn't think a 6.5x54MS would have chambered either. I have to admit the amount the bolt lacks closing by, suspiciously looks like the diameter of the cartridge is holding it back. The rifle is clearly marked as having been proofed for a 6.5x55 cartridge, and the barrel doesn't look like it has been set back enough to have been rechambered to a smaller diameter cartridge. If I were to make a chambercast of a bolt action, I would likely pull the barrel( to avoid the cerrosafe running into the locking lug recess) and in that case I would check if the chamber, by off chance, had been bushed, outside Germany. The proof house mark for case length only shows the maximum case length, it doesn't really show the nominal caliber, or diameter of the case. This leads to the possibility that it has a 6.5x54MS chamber that is a little long. The Austrians often designated their cartridge length, leaving off rim thickness. I believe( but could be wrong) the Austrian designation would have been x53, for a cartridge others call x54. I don't think, therefore, that is the source of the 54vs55 question. Since you posted additional photos, I'll say the lever release floorplate indicates German work typical of the period, so I don't think the magazine is a later addition, after all. It is very difficult to assess a rifle with only a few photos.
Mike

[kammerherren]

It’s always hard to be sure when looking at pictures, I completely agree. When looking at the dimensions of the cartridges, the 6,5x55 measure .435” close to the neck and the rest of the cartridge is very coned until the largest dimension at the rear end that is .480”. The largest dimension at the rear on the 6,5x54MS is .452". When trying to insert a 6,5x55 in a 6,5x54MS chamber for sure it will not fit when the cartridge enters a few cm into the chamber and the cartridge reaches where it is .452". If this is not the case it could be the extractor that is unable to find space when it is grabbing the larger 6,5x55 cartridge. Anyhow, I need help to get any further. I would have guessed that a 6,5x54MS Go/No go gauge would be sufficient to clarify this once and for all?

[mike ford]

kammerherren,
Any additional information would be helpful, of course, but headspace gauges only tell if a chamber's dimension from the bolt face to the "datum line" is longer than the minimum and shorter than the maximum. Off the top of my head, I don't know what the difference between these dimensions is, but is likely to be between the .308 Win. .003" and the 30-06 .006". I haven't researched the difference(if any), between the headspace for 6.5x54MS and for 6.5x54 Mauser( which would be more likely found in a German rifle, and also is smaller than 6.5x55 in head diameter). A chamber cast is not a very good way to precisely find the headspace, but it will show diameters of the different points in the chamber. A chamber cast in addition to headspace gauges should "tell the tale".
Mike

[Axel E]

Mike, a 6.5x54 M-S will not go into a 6.5x54 K Mauser chamber. The M-Sch case has a much longer base to shoulder length than the Mauser. So the rifle can not be chambered for the Mauser K number. The photo shows old factory loads, left to right, a 6.5x54 M-Sch, two 6.5x54 K Mauser loads, a 6.5x53R Mannlicher.

My guess: the rifle is either in 6.5x57 (the "Suhler 6.5") or in 6.5x54 M-Sch indeed.
BTW, once I was presented with the barreled action only of a G.Gibbs, Bristol, sporterised Mannlicher-Schoenauer M1900. I first put it into a makeshift stock. Without decyphering the British proofmarks I assumed it to be in 6.5x54 M-Sch. So I loaded one of my handloads. Result: a perfect center hit at 100 m, slight gas escape and a badly bulged case. The barrel was rechambered and Birmingham reproofed in 1983 to 6.5x55 SE! The pic shows the rifle with a stock made later by myself.

[mike ford]

Axel,
Thanks, I don't have a 6.5x54 K Mauser cartridge or case. Do you have an answer for the "55" proof mark? BTW nice stock.
Mike