1927 Hunting Rifle Help

[JohnInPa]

Greetings:

First time poster. I wanted to show you a rifle that my wife inherited. I started a thread on another forum and was able to piece together a lot of information, but figured that I'd be remiss in not posting to this site as well.

What I think I know........

1. Standard commercial hunting rifle
2. Proofed in February 1927
3. Christoph Funk
4. Shoots the 8x57j mauser round.

I slugged the barrel four separate times and came up with identical results four times. A good thing, right? Well in my case the slug reads anywhere from 7.95mm to 8.26mm! This is very frustrating for me as I don't want to shoot it until I know with certainty that I am using the proper ammo. Although you could argue that only shooting the 57j is safe in either that or the more common 57js guns.

Anyhow, I am probably going to bite the bullet (pun intended) and take it to a gunsmith. That kills me though as I really wanted to figure this out myself.

Thank you for looking.

John

[JohnInPa]

Two moreBottom - Copy.jpg
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[sharps4590]

Ah-ha!!! There it is!!!! The long sought after Lancaster/Funk oval bore, grooved barrel!!!! I am teasing John but that popped into my head and I couldn't resist. If I understand you correctly that is what you're saying, that the slug comes out.....ovoid? I have no answer for that one and I expect I'd be taking it to a smith also or, do as you've done bringing your results to this forum. Mike, Axel, Diz and several others have seen about all of it.

It is a nice looking rifle, does it have a stepped barrel?

[Diz]

johninpa, not sure exactly what you mean with your measurements. Could you post a picture or two of the slug from the bore with the calipers perhaps. That will give us a better understanding of what you are saying, oval bore not withstanding that prankster Sharps! Also, where in PA are you? Thanks and have a nice Holiday. Diz

[JohnInPa]

Ah-ha!!! There it is!!!! The long sought after Lancaster/Funk oval bore, grooved barrel!!!!

You had me going for as long as it took to read the first three sentences! Then I laughed out loud.......for real. Masterfully played.

It is a nice looking rifle, does it have a stepped barrel?

Tapered. I will post a better pic......

[JohnInPa]

johninpa, not sure exactly what you mean with your measurements. Could you post a picture or two of the slug from the bore with the calipers perhaps. That will give us a better understanding of what you are saying, oval bore not withstanding that prankster Sharps! Also, where in PA are you? Thanks and have a nice Holiday. Diz

I am having a hard time accepting the results as well. I never slugged a rifle before so this was my first and I am hoping that it's user error. However, as mentioned above, if I did indeed perform the slug test incorrectly, then I managed to screw it up four times in a row, with identical results. I will post up some pics in a bit.

I live in the east suburbs of Pittsburgh.

[JohnInPa]

Here are a few pics of on of the slugs.

[mike ford]

JohnInPa,
The 7.94 is the land dia., and 8.24 is the groove diameter. My wife just called me to supper, I will address other things tomorrow.
Mike

[Diz]

JohninPa,

I believe from the pictures that Mike has hit it on the head. It appears that you did a good job of slugging the bore as the slug looks to be fully filled out. My guess is you have four groove rifling and measuring across you end up measuring either the rifling lands one way (7.94) and the grooves (8.24) when rotated somewhat giving you the two different measurements. I'll leave it to Mike to fill in the rest of the details but I would say you did just fine.

Pittsburgh is a hike from Quakertown or I would say we could meet but I think you are going to get all your questions answered here. It is a nice rifle too.

Thanks, Diz

[JohnInPa]

The pieces are falling into place! Many thanks.

I did just confirm that there are four grooves in the rifle. They are twisted.

I will wait for Mike to confirm, but I believe that my measurements put this on the high side of the standard 8x57js? Which is odd because I thought that a non-military hunting rifle made in 1927 would not be allowed to be bored that way because of the Treaty of Versailles. Also, is such a large difference between land and groove common? I am new to this, but that seems like a pretty deep groove based on what I've read.

And I was wrong about the barrel. I believe upon further inspection it looks to be stepped. Yes?

Here are a few more crappy pics.

John

[algmule]

Hello
00.jpg

Stock also has finger grooves and a stock bolt.

EDIT: there´s a question mark to the left of the arrow.

Kind regards
Peter

[JohnInPa]

Hello

Stock also has finger grooves and a stock bolt.

EDIT: there´s a question mark to the left of the arrow.

Kind regards
Peter

Good eyes Peter! Here are some more pics of what I would think are mods to the original stock.

The circle (25mm diameter) has to be a plug as the grains are not matched and they don't run in the same direction. You would think that who ever pieced the plug would have at least lined-up the grain pattern.

Is that an "F" carved into the stock or just a coincidental scratch?

Two more plugs on the bottom of the stock behind the rear hand grip.

Looks like someone had a strap hole drilled into the bottom of the forward most stock as well.

Could this be military stock modified for hunting purposes?

[mike ford]

JohnInPa,
What you have is a pre WW1 rifle that was converted for sporting use, post WW1. This was widely done between the Wars, with different grades of rifles resulting. Your particular rifle would have been one of the Economy versions. The fact that the stock is a converted military one is borne out by the inlays, pointed out by others. The rifle was likely marketed for use with 8x57I ammo. The 7.9 mm (bore, not groove or bullet) dia. proof mark was sort of a nebulous mark that is sometimes found on rifles for either cartridge. I believe the rifle was rebarreled with a surplus military barrel, that was made before the restrictions, and taken from storage. I came to this, admittedly , speculation due to slightly different surface condition between the barrel and receiver . Adding to this, the "witness marks" don't precisely line up. The fact that the proof marks don't include case length, convinces me it was not chambered for 8x60IS, which was a cartridge developed to be able to easily convert existing 8x57IS rifles to use a lawful cartridge. There is little doubt the "60" would have been proudly displayed, if it was so chambered, at that time. There are many rifles with barrels were made with the smaller groove diameter, that can be used with .323" bullets, due to particular dimensions in the chamber's neck/throat area. Your rifle's barrel, however, seems to have been made the larger groove diameter, and I wouldn't be afraid to use it with any commercial ammo. Of course, as always, I could be wrong. To check for this, you should inspect the case of the first round fired in it. If the case neck is blown forward more than a couple "thousandths", it may be 8x60 IS, after all. If the case will not easily accept a .323" bullet, it might have an 8x57I chamber, in spite of the larger groove diameter. None of this is to disparage the rifle, which seems to be a good working rifle, which can give many more years of good service, as is; or, since it is not particularly collectable, you don't have to be afraid of modifying it.
Mike

[Axel E]

That CFT mark does not stand for Christoph Funk. I have the same mark on a drilling in 12 - 12 /7x57R, inherited from my grandfather. Even the Suhl people could not identify it positively. It is most likely the mark of the Christoph Friedrich Triebel company, gunmakers and –dealers, Grosse Backstrasse 14, Suhl. Founded about 1800, C.F.Triebel existed to 1945.
As your barrel shows the telltale steps in front of the rear sight and behind the dront sling swivel, it is certainly a reused WW1 Gewehr 98 military barrel, as is the action. The Versailles treaty did not prohibit the making or use of 8mm S, .323" groove, barrels, but the making of 8x57IS military rifles and any ammo that could be used in such rifles. So both the cartridges 8x57I and 8x57IS were outlawed, even for civilian use. This led to the rechambering of such barrels to the "civilian" 8x60, I or S. Though some 8x57 / 8mm Mauser chambered rifles were made for export only, an 8x57 chambring is very unusual for a rifle proofed in 1927. So check the chamber before using the rifle.

[JohnInPa]

Well we just got back from the range. Pumped about 60 8mm (.323) mauser rounds through the gun with no problems. The barrel is indeed in much better condition than the receiver. And most importantly, it accepts the 8x57IS rounds with no problems, see the photo. The rounds were the cheapo Romanian ones that have been getting lukewarm reviews.

As I said, we ran into no problems and had a great time. Thing kicked like a mule and my shoulder was the only casualty of the day. That metal butt plate is the next casualty! By far the coolest sounding of the group of firearms we had at our disposal.

Looks like this mystery is all but solved. Thank you again. Mike and Axel your information was exactly what I was looking for. So a few more questions and then I will tap out.

Was the stock cut down from an existing G98 stock?
What evidence would the chamber provide as an indication that it's 8x60mm?

Cheers,
John