1927 Hunting Rifle Help

[algmule]

Hello

For comparison: here is a shotgun conversion in a sporterized Gewehr 98 stock. Your rifle stock lacks the Schnabel (or whatever it might have been called).

00b.jpg

If I recall correctly your rifle is the first rifle I´ve seen in a sporterized Gewehr 98 stock. I´ve only seen shotgun conversions with the "economy model" stock before.

I have a question. Does anybody know if the 8x57IS was prohibited immediately after the signing of the Versailles Treaty or was there a period of negotiations before implementation?

Might as well throw in a second question: was, or rather, perhaps, became the export marking "Germany" something that was mandatory or was it up to each individual exporter to mark wares such? I´ve seen a number of Erfurt sporters without the marking Germany that clearly was for export. (and a third question) Or was it the receiving countries that demanded this marking? As it is in English I would think it was for the English speaking countries, predominately, and it probably was in the interest of economy to use "Germany" for other countries as well.

EDIT again: sorry, forgot, an image of the butt plate, please.

Kind regards
Peter

[JohnInPa]

Here you go Peter.

[Axel E]

Finger grooves on he foreends of Gewehr 98 stocks were introduced in 1916. In 1917 the marking plate, the plugged hole in the side of your buttstock, was replaced by the hollow disassembly device, showing at both sides and consequently needing plugs on both sides too. As you don't mention such plugs on both sides, this dates your military stock to 1916 -17. Most likely all parts, lock, stock and barrel of your rifle were originally made then. Your buttplate too is the reshaped military one.

[sharps4590]

As I understand it and, am certainly subject to correction, the 8 X 60 came about after WWI as an economical and effective means for civilians to keep their 8 X 57 rifles. The 8 X 57 case and chamber was merely lengthened 3mm and I believe the same neck length and shoulder angle were maintained. Of course you're probably aware of all that. The indications on 57mm length brass fired in a 60mm chamber would be the shoulder moved forward and the neck considerably shortened. If fired cases look quite similar to unfired cartridge cases then yours would more than likely still be the 57mm length chamber. Given the year Axel gives the rifle it pre-dates the 8 X 60.

[JohnInPa]

Finger grooves on he foreends of Gewehr 98 stocks were introduced in 1916. In 1917 the marking plate, the plugged hole in the side of your buttstock, was replaced by the hollow disassembly device, showing at both sides and consequently needing plugs on both sides too. As you don't mention such plugs on both sides, this dates your military stock to 1916 -17. Most likely all parts, lock, stock and barrel of your rifle were originally made then. Your buttplate too is the reshaped military one.

So how does the February 1927 proof date on the barrel come into play?

[algmule]

Hello

2/27 is a civilian proof mark. I only see serial numbering in the barrel channel (assume this is the full serial) and part serial numbering on the bolt release and on the wing safety. Is there no serial on the barrel?

EDIT: I have all the issues of Wild und Hund from 1927 including ads (right now packed in a moving box). If the next cup of coffee tells me to I´ll unpack the box and I´ll check if someone advertizes rifles in 8x57IS. I don't recall there being any ads from Triebel but Funk was most certainly advertizing.

Kind regards
Peter

[Axel E]

So how does the February 1927 proof date on the barrel come into play?

Military acceptance was and is invalid for civilian use, according to European proof laws. So the rifle, after professional sporterizing, had to undergo civilian proof. The parts of the rifle, Action, barrel and stock, were made during WW1, the stock at least 1916 -17. After 1918 the Gewehr 98 was "demilitarised". At that time it was sufficient to take it apart, cut the long military foreend so no bayonet could be used. Later, close to 1927, the parts were pulled out of storage, the Receiver scrubbed of the military markings,the bolt handle, barrel, sights and stock altered, serial number and maker marked by Triebel and the "new" sporting rifle duly submitted to the proofhouse for civilian proof.

[Axel E]

An ad from Waffenschmied April 1921:
"Repeating rifles, Mod.98, in 8 or 9mm, with or without set trigger, pistol grip stock, good in shooting and execution, are supplied to the trade, in larger numbers too, on short order at advantageous prices, by Chr.Friedr.Triebel, Suhl"

[JohnInPa]

You guys are an invaluable source of information. What a wonderful backstory for this family heirloom. Gun brought back after WWII from wife's grandfather who had served in the army all over Europe. He was a deer hunter (extremely popular sport here in western PA) so there is no doubt this rifle would have had an immediate appeal. I would guess that there would have been no way for him to bring back a military rifle, so a civilian model makes perfect sense.

Thank you all on behalf of my family! The gun will remain in the family for at least as long as I am still breathing.

John

PS - I now have the urge to acquire another, more period correct G98, as a sister (or brother....I don't have a preference) rifle. That's my way of saying that I will most likely be back to tap the collective knowledge of this site again.

PPS - Peter, no serial number on the barrel that I can see.

[algmule]

Hello

Here's an image of the typical placing of the front sling swivel of a Geha shotgun conversion (not all of them had a front sling swivel).
00d.JPG

I´ll let someone else judge if there is enough wood in a Geha-stock to be sporterized in the way JohnInPa's rifle stock is and I wouldn´t know how a rifle barrel from a Gewehr 98 would fit in a Gewehr 98 stock meant for a shotgun barrel.

JohnInPa,
I assume the receiver of your gun does not have a serial. Am I correct? Also: I´m sorry, but you can't leave the thread now as I´m curious if other parts of your rifle bear serials/part serials. I have no doubt that the receiver and barrel once came together but I´m unsure about the rest of the rifle. Really sorry for being annoying.

EDIT: the Geha stocks also have stamped serials in their barrel channels and I guess a bolt release and a wing safety are replaceable between a Geha shotgun conversion a sporterized 1920's Gewehr 98 rifle.

Kind regards
Peter

[JohnInPa]

Peter:

I owe everyone who replied to this thread a great deal of gratitude and respect. I am willing to pay it back however you wish. I will answer any and all questions as best I can in order to help you learn as much as possible, not only for your own edification, but for those, like myself, who will follow. Not annoying at all. I am really enjoying this and selfishly look forward to keeping it going!

I will disable the gun and post any odd markings that I haven't already. If you can point me to a particular location, that would help.

John

[algmule]

Hello

John,
thanks, I much appreciate your helpfulness.

Any kind of serial on bolt, trigger guard and bottom of (inside) magazine well would be great but, really, any kind of serial, be it full serial or part serial, would be welcome. As the bolt handle is modified there may not be any part serial numbering there.

I´m not saying your rifle didn´t once come as one, however, the stock of your rifle put the notion in my head that it didn´t and as there isn´t a serial on the barrel (and receiver?) but part serial on the bolt release and safety I had to ask for more information.

Kind regards
Peter

[Axel E]

älgmule, apparently the Versailles treaty prohibitions did not become effective at once or immediately. I went through the 1920 – 1923 issues of "Der Waffenschmied / Waffenzeitung"to find out. The So called "Versailles peace treaty" was signed at gunpoint on June 28, 1919. It was effective after ratificaton on January 10, 1920. Only then the allied disarmament commissions were formed and could begin to work, taking some time. As the Germans thought the conditions of the treaty unjust and suspected the disarmament commissions with espionage, they tried to cover up as much as possible. Especially the French tried to get all German inventions and technology in hand to improve their own industry. So documentation of the proceedings and the German bypasses is very scarce. The commissions closed down the Gewehrfabrik Danzig on July 31, 1921. The Gewehrfabrik Erfurt, renamed Reichswerke Erfurt and Deutsche Werke Erfurt meanwhile, followed March 31, 1922. But I found nothing about the ban on making "civilian" 8x57 ammo until a notice in "Waffenschmied" May 1923. Here the "new" 8x60 was mentioned as a replacement for the "recently prohibited" 8x57. Note, only manufacturing of any loads that could be used in the military rifles was forbidden, not the making of sporting rifles chmbered so or the use of existing stocks. The reason for this ban may be found in neighbouring Austria: Their St.Germain treaty also limited the number of military cartridges to be made each year for the small army. These allowances were meant to be barely enough for the necessary training, but insufficient for building up any stocks for a future war. The Austrians had circumvented these limitations by reserving all their allowance of fmj military ammo to stockpiles while doing all peacetime training of their soldiers with soft nose, civilian hunting ammo. The result: During a short, communist uprising in 1920 all stocks of military ammo were in the hands of the rebels in Vienna. So the Austrian army shot up the poor rebels with their "dum-dum" training loads.
The markings "Made in Germany" go back to the British Merchandise Marks Act 1887. Meant to denounce German products as inferior, the idea soon backfired. "Made in Germany" soon became a mark of superior quality in the world market, proudly applied by Germans even to wares not destined to the Empire. Well, some Suhl gunmakers signed their guns "made in Prussia" to distinguish their superior products from those made by the neighbouring cheapos in Zella-Mehlis, Duchy Sachse-Coburg-Gotha. Of course, such markings were not necessary on guns not destined to the British Empire.

[JohnInPa]

I've gone over the gun with a fine toothed comb. The number '79' appears in quite a few places. The firing pin, safety toggle, extractor, trigger, and slide release all have '79' on them. The stock has '379'. Does the 3 prefix mean anything?

As for the barrel, here is a pic of the only number that I have not already posted. I didn't post it because I simply assumed the 7,9 was just another caliber marking. '79' and '7,9' are marks on my gun. It makes this a bit confusing.

20170529_162312.jpg

Lastly, I managed to strip the barrel screw that holds the barrel and the stock together. It's the one closest the muzzle. This screw was brass and definitely NOT original. Any idea what size screw I can use to replace it?

John

[mike ford]

John,
The 7,9 is the bore(not groove or bullet) diameter of the rifle as measured by the proof house with "plug gauges". By accident, the 79 seems to be the last two digits in the serial number. Parts were often marked with the last two digits to aid in assembly. The screw size was set before the Mod 98 (it is the same as older models) during a time before the Metric system was adopted by most countries. The screws are 1/4"-22; while not metric, are still not a common US thread pitch. The brass screw in your rifle is likely either 1/4"-20 or 1/4"-28 , "forced" into the rifle, because the brass is softer than steel. The easiest way to get a new screw is to just buy one, either from a dealer in surplus parts, or a newly manufactured one from a dealer in sporting parts. Of course, your local gunsmith can "single point" one for you, or "die cut" one if he happens to have a tap and die set (special thread) to clean up deformed threads in customers rifles.
Mike