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http://www.jagdwaffensammler.de -
"Büchsenmacher" is clearly visible. The ending "-meister" makes no sense, i have never seen any rifle from this time that was signed "Büchsenmachermeister"Originally posted by ellenbr View Post
Would be nice to get an good pic from another angle.Last edited by chapmen; 08-19-2016, 09:01 AM.http://www.jagdwaffensammler.deComment
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I'm posting these 4 pics in response to the requests for better ones. I think this is the best I can do (outdoors, shade, natural light). Any comments/help appreciated. Pics #1 & 2 are the left side; the Fraktur (?) lettering is faded/rubbed out towards the end under the scope mount. Hard to see much even with a magnifier. Pics #3 & 4 are the right side and not posted previously. Not knowing German or Fraktur, I frankly an not sure which side is "up" for the lettering so I posted these both ways.
DSC03914.jpgDSC03917.jpgDSC03923.jpgDSC03925.jpgComment
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It seems to me as though the inscription on the right side perhaps reads "Huebner Darmstadt" but I can't make out anything of the word following ["Buech]senmacher on the left. DanComment
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The words "Hübner + Darmstadt" were the missing link. The Suhl made gun was retailed by Robert Hübner, Ernst – Ludwig – Str. 11, Darmstadt. Born in Zella-Mehlis, master gunsmith Hübner took over the Darmstadt gunshop of Louis Wesp in 1917. The company still exists, but as a common sports shop, no guns any more http://www.sporthuebner.de/
I have a boxlock double rifle signed by Hübner. It is in 9.3x74R, 24" barrels. Though it was made in Suhl, it was proofed in Zella-Mehlis in April 1919. ( Suhl was in revolutionary turmoil at that time)
Both sides of the action and the barrels (3 times!) are inscribed:
" Robert Hübner / Hofbüchsenmachermeister / Darmstadt".
"Hofbüchsenmachermeister" translates to "master gunsmith to the court (of the Grand Duchy Hesse in Darmstadt)"Comment
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The modern CIP max cartridge dimensions differ very slightly from the 1909 Normalisation dimensions as posted by chapman. The base diameters are the same at 10.91 mm. The old dimensions show a straight taper to the 9.79 mm mouth, being 9.81 mm at 50 mm from the base. The CIP cases taper to 9.82 mm for the first 50 mm from the base, then there is a straight neck to the 9.82 mm mouth. This may be the reason why modern, close to max, S&B loads don't completely fit a 1909 minimum chamber.Comment
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Axel, Kiwi, Mike, Nathaniel and all who have answered my questions: thank you very much for the great information and helping me learn about this gun and about old German guns in general. I now have a handle on what to do with this gun to solve the chambering problem and also know something of its history. I've got an idea about my Father's acquisition of this gun as he went through the areas of Darmstadt, Suhl, and Zella-Mehlis during the war.
I have a final question for which I think the answer is obvious but just want confirmation. After pulling both triggers, it looks like there is no firing pin for the upper shotgun. Do you know if it's possible to get one installed? Here's the picture:
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Hammer:Originally posted by chapmen View Post
I assume it makes sense & now you've seen it on a German sporting weapon? I did not state it make sense just that a best correlation of letters was as I stated. When it is what it is, an Ockham's Razor approach is warranted.
Cheers,
Raimey
rseComment
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The signature "Hofbüchsenmachermeister" may have been peculiar to Robert Hübner. I too have not yet seen it on guns by other makers/retailers.Comment
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will_paladin,
From the photo it looks like the upper is broken since it is doubtful it could have rebounded out of sight. Dropping the hammers on an empty chamber invites breakage as there is nothing to absorb the energy. A good gunsmith should be able to make one easily. It is a great looking piece and certainly worth getting it repaired.
Good luck, DizComment
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I would agree with except for one part, easy. Maybe I'm just not that good!
Usually the firing pins in these guns are fairly simple and most gunsmiths with moderate machining experience can get a new one made. I have seen some that are somewhat complex and to duplicate the geometry can be challenging. Additionally, more than once I have had to make a firing pin without the original being complete. It is can be very challenging to make something without knowing what it was. With a standard two up drilling it is easier of course, you typically have another to check. In my experience the rifle firing pin can be different slightly from the shotgun.
Typically I have found that the most difficult part is taking the gun apart and gaining access to the firing pins. Some require making a spanner type tool and may or may not require more disassembly to gain access. And of course, the most important being disassembling the arm, and reassembling, with no one being able to know someone has gained access.Comment
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will_paladin,
Any of the gunsmiths that advertise in the Trade Directory in "WAIDMANNSHEIL" will have the specific necessary knowledge/experience cited by Nathaniel.
MikeComment
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Mike & Nathaniel, do you have any knowledge about Champlin Firearms of Enid, OK? They've been around 40 + years, good reputation.
Here's their website: http://www.champlinarms.com
Thank you, WillComment
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will_palidin,
Generally, you will find the hammer end of the firing pin still in the gun and also generally every thing is there except the actual pin end. The profile is easy to copy and the pin diameter can be gotten with a wire drill through the pin hole. Pin length adjusted until you have the proper protrusion. Disassembly is usually not the issue, reassembly is. I cannot comment on Champlain Arms other than they have a good reputation. Choose your gunsmith wisely.
Thanks, DizComment
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