Help me ID this combination gun; new member

[Will_Paladin]

My father brought this combination 16 ga./9.3 X 72R back from WWII in 1946. I inherited it almost 30 years ago and am just now
getting around to researching it. It looks to be a beautiful gun but I am not knowledgeable at these types of guns. The rifle caliber
has me baffled. The proof mark in one place says "9mm" and underneath that "72"; but on the extractor it says "9.3 X 72 Normal".
I have no idea what that means. One thing for sure is it will not chamber a S & B 9.3 X 72R round...see pictures.

Any information about this gun and the chambering would be greatly appreciated.

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[Will_Paladin]

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[Will_Paladin]

Last picture of S&B 9.3 x 72R. Will not seat/chamber without forcing it.

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[Kiwi_bloke]

Until about 1912 different ammo makers would use slightly different case designs and a gun that fit one would not fit another. That protected their market, I guess. But this must have been a constant source of irritation when shooters arrived in the field and discovered, they had the wrong ammo. These variations are usually described as "E" for English and "D" for Deutsch, (i.e. German). This terminology reflects the fact that the original case that was copied was an old black powder English one. So about that year these cases were "normalised". This mean that going forward, they would conform to a third variation. So you could have 9,3x72R "E", 9,3x72R "D" or after about 1912, a 9,3x72R "N". I would think that earlier guns were often modified too to become "Normalised".

Modern S&B brass should be "Normal". So it should fit a "Normal" chamber like a glove, but the fact that it sticks out the way it does suggest to me that you might have one of these other earlier chambers, ("E" or "D"), despite the very prominent "Normal" marking. The quick way to find out is to get a gunsmith to run a Cerrosafe chamber cast and measure it every 10mm from top to bottom. What you are looking for is; does the case have a straight taper or a curved taper. I have the case drawings of the 2 types here and will dig them out to compare to your chamber cast.

So now what?!

That's going to depend on what you have, but assuming it really is a 9,3x72R and modern S&B brass, even full-length sized, doesn't fit then I suspect you'll need the appropriate FL dies from CH. Send them the chamber cast measurements and see what they say. In my experience, RCBS dies will only do the "Normal" cases. However CH made up a special run for one of the earlier types. I gave my CH dies away to the guy who brought my 9,3x72R.

You may also find that the recess in the extractor and in the chamber is not deep enough for the case rim. Just turn your S&B case upside down and you should see at a glance - or you can measure it with a dial-vernier. You could deepen it, but I would not advise this at all. Rather, ask a gunsmith or anyone handy with a lathe to make up a spigot to hold the case, then turn down the rim thickness from above. In other words, don't go making the whole case head thinner from the bottom as it needs to be strong around the primer pocket etc.

There are 2 sizes of 9,3mm bullet. Those made for the 9,3x72R, (which are smaller than 9,3x74R), are the ones to get. Never use the larger type. Keep in mind also that 16 gauge back then was typically 2,1/2" or 2,9/16" - not 2, 3/4". 2,3/4" chambered guns typically have a 16/70 stamped on them or just a 70 inside a circle and yours does not, (that I can see). Your gunsmith can also check this by turning down a rod of wood or metal so it just fits the chamber. When it comes to a stop, mark off the depth and consult chamber diagrams to work out what you have.

You can find ready loaded 2,1/2" or 2,9/16" shells, (65 or 67mm), if you search around, but never use the longer 2,3/4" (70mm), cases in a short chamber. If you want to reload the short case, suggest you ask Ballistic Products to send you one of their 16 gauge manuals that also has appropriate short loads in it and also buy a spacer that will fit on a MeC 16ga reloader to take up that extra 1/4". The reloader will then happily load the shorter case for you. You can cut down Winchester or other cases, (whatever the recipe calls for), to the required overall (i.e. unfolded) length.

BTW, Buchsenmacher (with an umlaut over the "u"), means gun-maker. Is the name of the gun-maker covered up by the mounts? Krupp is the barrel maker. The rifle has scope-bases but no scope. The German public were told they had to surrender their hunting rifles in 1945/6, but not their scopes. So that might help explain that.

KmG 13g means Kupfer Mantel Geschoss or copper coated bullet of that weight. It was apparently normal back then to mark 9,3x72R rifles as "9x72R" or even "8.9x72R". The difference is probably down to land vs groove diameter being used. I'm guessing that "9.3x72R NORMAL" was added latter, so the rifle could still predate 1912. The action of this combination gun looks to me like what is described as a "Roux-action", after a French gunsmith. However I think this name was applied to any under-lever snap-action somewhat freely. The word "Nitro" should mean that smokeless powders are OK in it, but ask the gunsmith to assess how strong it is after all these years before shooting it. The "W" stamped on the shotgun barrel points to it being choked, (Wuergebohrung), but not how much - probably choked full to shot foxes and hares. The "G" will be stamped on the rifled barrel, as that is what it refers to, (Gezogen means rifled or grooved).

If you do get that chamber Cerrosafe'd, let us know what you find.

[mike ford]

Will,
Kiwi_bloke gave you a lot of information, most of it is correct, here are some small tweaks. Rather than being the barrel maker, the Krupp stamp likely just means the barrel was made from Krupp steel. The Crown G is commonly misread as standing for "Gezogen"; instead it stands for "Geschoss" (projectile or bullet). It may seem like a minor point, except that this mark was also applied to smooth bored guns intended to be used with a single bullet, rather than shot. The 9mm over 72 means it was measured as having a "bore"(not groove or bullet) diameter and a case 72mm long(at least). The bore diameter was checked with "pin gauges" and the barrel would accept a 9mm diameter gauge, but not 9.1mm. This has nothing to do with the name of the cartridge it is chambered for. The word "nitro" was not clear enough for me to tell( because of the angle), but if it is in script, it was proofed in Zella-Mehilis; but if in block letters it was proofed in Suhl. Whoever actually made it would have likely been in or around which ever city it was proofed in. I'm a little bit perplexed that it wouldn't chamber the S&B cartridge, since it was clearly marked for the 9.3x72R Norm. The barrels seem to be clean, from the photos, but I suggest you inspect the chamber with a strong light to insure there is no obstruction in the chamber, or that it needs cleaning. If it is indeed not chambered for the "N" version, your course of action depends a lot on whether you will handload your ammo or not. As a handloader myself, I know that once you have cases fireformed in your chamber, you can use the normal dies and won't need custom made dies. The trick being to get the cases small enough to chamber, for the initial fireforming. I have found that running the case into a 38-55 File/trim die usually does this. While I can't recommend it, for obvious reasons, if it were mine I would lightly size a lubricated cartridge in the 38-55 die, and see if it would then chamber, with out having to pull the bullets and empty the powder. On the other hand, if you absolutely will not load your own ammo, rechambering from the "D" to "N" chamber is one of the very few I'm not highly opposed to. If you decide to handload, there are several of us here that will be happy to help you. Along with the chambercast, recommended by Kiwi_bloke, you should have the barrel "slugged" to determine the groove diameter. I expect we will have other discussions about this.
Mike

[Will_Paladin]

Kiwi & Mike, thank you both for a lot of great information. It's got me started well along the path to learning about this gun. I am going to do a thorough bore cleaning (and general cleanup) of this gun and see if the S&B 9.3 x 72R will fit and extract properly. If not, I will seek someone that can do a chambercast for me in my area. I am not a handloader and know little about it.

The NITRO is indeed in block letters so I guess it was proofed in Suhl. There is a small, but unclear, stamp just to the left of the NITRO that appears to be an eagle, as best I can tell.

Please look at the second picture in my #2 post above. Does the decorative lettering or scroll work above the NITRO have any meaning?

Thanks again, Will

[Will_Paladin]

Kiwi & Mike, thank you both for a lot of great information. It's got me started well along the path to learning about this gun. I am going to do a thorough bore cleaning (and general cleanup) of this gun and see if the S&B 9.3 x 72R will fit and extract properly. If not, I will seek someone that can do a chambercast for me in my area. I am not a handloader and know little about it.

The NITRO is indeed in block letters so I guess it was proofed in Suhl. There is a small, but unclear, stamp just to the left of the NITRO that appears to be an eagle, as best I can tell.

Please look at the second picture in my #2 post above. Does the decorative lettering or scroll work above the NITRO have any meaning?

Thanks again, Will

[Steve Whitley]

Will, that appears to be part of "Büchsenmacher" (literally "rifle maker" or gunsmith) and possibly an address, but it is obscured by the scope mount and a shadow in your photo.
Steve

[Kiwi_bloke]

If this photo posting works, you should have the 2 metric sizes of 9,3x72R D & E, (but not the "normal" size - can anyone help?).

A Cerrosafe casting is a bit like lead to look at. A gunsmith will block the barrel a little ahead of the chamber, pour it in, (it has a safe low melting point), let it set, then remove and measure it after a short period. He'll then give you a drawing that you can compare to these two, or you can make your own latter.

What you are looking for is, does the case have a straight taper or a curving taper. I can tell you that a standard 9,3x72R case of modern manufacture, (by S&B and also Norma and/or RWS), stood out from my barrel by about the same amount as yours until it was reworked by the CH FL-die. But CH will need to know what these Cerrosafe measurements are before you buy/try their die. Practically any good gunsmith will likely have some Cerrosafe on standby.

[Nathaniel Myers]

Will,

You are fortunate to have such an item. I won't bore you with my family history but suffice to say you are fortunate!

Where are you located?

[Kiwi_bloke]

If anyone needs a larger file of this cartridge drawing, one where the measurements are more readable, send me a PM and I'll forward the original.

[Nathaniel Myers]

I think I have one somewhere in the files, but please send me one.

nathaniel@myersarms.com

Thanks!

[Will_Paladin]

Does the "S.S." stamp have any significance? Thank you, Will.

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[Nathaniel Myers]

Compensation and liability to S. Schilling as the mark is doubled, rifling and chambering the barrel were done at the same shop

I have this note in my records. However my marking is slightly different.

Will reply to your email later this evening.

[ellenbr]

Looks like Büchsenmachermeister in Fraktur. 2nd post, 3rd picture, above the Krupp Stahl stamp, near the top tube are the initials SS in Fraktur or Gothic?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse