Help with JP Sauer Side by Side

[leonc23fft]

I was hoping someone could help me figure out some information on this gun. I can not determine the manufacture date, I know it is supposed to be a 3 or 4 digit number, but it doesn't seem like any of these numbers are a date. I have found on the barrel that the left barrel is the shorter 16 gauge shotgun shell, but unable to determine the right barrel which has rifling but the barrel size is 0.58". I have attached a few pictures and would appreciate some information if someone could help.

Thanks

Leon Replogle
leonc23fft@aol.com

[Peter K]

Is this not a gun made in Belgium? There is the symbol of Liege beside the serial number in picture 5.

Peter K

[Axel E]

Leonc, what makes you think this gun being a Sauer & Sohn? I can not detect any hint to a Sauer origin in your photos. Granted, in the 1880s – 90s S&S sometimes imported guns or parts from Liege. As the "perron" and "L" stamps on the watertable show, the gun originally went trough the Liege, Belgium, proofhouse. After 1893 it was reproofed in Germany, crown/R and other proofmarks. The bore/land diameter of the rifle barrel is given as 26 gauge. This points to the use of shortened 24 bore shotgun cases, loaded with blackpowder and short, blunt "beehive" or "cat's head" lead bullets. Such rifle loads were popular in the 1860s to 70s, but were obsolescent by 1880. The shape of the fences and the double grip Lefaucheux breech action also point to a 1870s Liege origin. I can not read the inscription under the foreend iron, your first photo, but it seems to start "ART…" and end with "Bt.". As Bt. stands for "Brevete", French for "patent", this may give another hint to the original maker.

[mike ford]

Leon,
24 ga would be about 577 in rifle terms.
Mike

[Diz]

Axel, my understanding of a 'beehive" cartridge is considerably different from what I am sure you are meaning and I have never heard the expression "cat's head" regarding bullets. Can you expand on this? Thanks, Diz

[Axel E]

Diz, sorry for any confusion. I simply translated the monickers once popular among German hunters, "Bienenkorbgeschoss" = beehive bullet and "Katzenkopfgeschoss" = cat's head bullet. Here is a page from an old RWS bullet catalog, bullets for Lancaster = center fire shot cases and Lefaucheux = pin fire shot cases. Note, the dimensions are different for Messing- (= brass) and Papphülsen (cardboard cases). So you have to do a chamber cast to determine if the barrel is bored and rifled for fatter bullets in the thinner brass cases or if intended for the use of thick-walled paper hulls.



A contemporary drawing of a loaded cartridge with such bullet. There was a greased felt wad between powder and bullet.

[Diz]

Axel, many thanks for answering and especially posting the pictures. I am currently looking at a 24 gauge side by side with one barrel rifled twist and the other straight. This info will be very helpful in the future. Regards, Diz

[mike ford]

Once again, this is simply a difference in cultural word use, and both sides are correct, according to their own background. Old European beehives were round and had a round top, looking very much like the above bullets. To an American of Viet Nam War age the word describes a 105mm Howitzer anti-personnel round, loaded with a "bucket full" of flechetts(?). Some 40mm M79 grenades were also loaded with them.
Mike

[Diz]

Mike,

You are correct and that is what I was thinking of. I believe the APERS-T round for the 105 contained 8,000 darts. There were also similar rounds for the 90mm and 106mm recoilless rifles. The Marines had the ONTOS that carried six 106's on a track vehicle. There were also rounds for the 90mm tank gun and 152mm tank gun. We are a little off thread but it all is interesting.

Thanks, Diz

[mike ford]

A little off target, but it came from the bullwts for the gun in question. Anyway, I was an Engineer and didn't know about the other rounds.
This thing wouldn't let me correct "bullets", don't know what is going on. Mike