Please help to identify this drilling from 1923

[algmule]

Hello

I believe Raimey sorted the ledger on another forum so we may leave out Zella-Mehlis. I´m sorry for bringing it up.

The below image was the best I managed.

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I can´t make out if there are any markings/initials in the well.

As for the heart shaped marking on my sporterized G98 stock there was a gentleman who suggested it wasn´t but instead it was a spade. Perhaps the marking on the Drilling is as well. I´m not familiar with any spade-trademark from the 1920´s, nor in any other time frame.

Kind regards
Peter

[Czechmate]

Cynical indeed! It is a shame such a thing was done but apparently you were lucky just to have gotten it back. Have the shotgun barrels been drilled as well? I suppose a new rifle barrel could be fitted but I have no idea of the cost in Europe.

Regards, Diz

Yes, they are all drilled... They did a thorough job when they de-weaponized it... :-(

[Czechmate]

Hello

I believe Raimey sorted the ledger on another forum so we may leave out Zella-Mehlis. I´m sorry for bringing it up.

The below image was the best I managed.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2955[/ATTACH]

I can´t make out if there are any markings/initials in the well.

As for the heart shaped marking on my sporterized G98 stock there was a gentleman who suggested it wasn´t but instead it was a spade. Perhaps the marking on the Drilling is as well. I´m not familiar with any spade-trademark from the 1920´s, nor in any other time frame.

Kind regards
Peter

Thank you, any help or comment is greatly appreciated and some might lead in a wrong direction, but they offer food for thoughts and further investigation... :-)

Once I get my hands on the gun again, I will inspect the dolls head well better to see if there are any stampings... I had my hands on the gun this weekend, my father insisted that I take it home with me, but I didn't want to do so as long as he is still here... I guess I'm just superstitious, but I love my father and as long as he is alive, the gun stays with him... :-)

[mike ford]

Czechmate,
I 'll bet your father would be very pleased to see it working again. He might even help you with the cost.
Mike

[fuhrmann]

Yes, they are all drilled... They did a thorough job when they de-weaponized it... :-(

Czechmate,
Yes, a very thorough job indeed - reversing all this will be a lot of work and expensive.
All barrels drilled, the steel maybe damaged by soldering. I see no way to repair these barrels - bear in mind that any repair has to be re-proofed and accepted by the proof house.
This probably means another set of barrels. Having made new drilling barrels will mean a couple of 1000 Euros.

All the moving parts in the locks are gone, new ones will be another couple of 1000 Euros.

Market value of drillings like yours is very low in Germany, you can check it here:
http://www.egun.de/market/list_items...ode=cat&cat=66

I do not know about market prices in Czech Republic, or what a good gunsmith will charge in your country.

MAYBE it is possible to get another old drilling and use it as donor for the missing parts.
But you have to bear in mind that these guns were made in many different shops, more or less by hand, so all dimensions may vary.
The name of the manufacturer is often missing, on purpose. Many guns were made "for the trade", and only the name of the retailer is shown.
So this may be a difficult search.

fuhrmann

[fuhrmann]

Yes, they are all drilled... They did a thorough job when they de-weaponized it... :-(

Czechmate,
Yes, a very thorough job indeed - reversing all this will be a lot of work and expensive.
All barrels drilled, the steel maybe damaged by soldering. I see no way to repair these barrels - bear in mind that any repair has to be re-proofed and accepted by the proof house.
This probably means another set of barrels. Having made new drilling barrels will mean a couple of 1000 Euros.

All the moving parts in the locks are gone, new ones will be another couple of 1000 Euros.

Market value of drillings like yours is very low in Germany, you can check it here:
http://www.egun.de/market/list_items...ode=cat&cat=66

I do not know about market prices in Czech Republic, or what a good gunsmith will charge in your country.

MAYBE it is possible to get another old drilling and use it as donor for the missing parts.
But you have to bear in mind that these guns were made in many different shops, more or less by hand, so all dimensions may vary.
The name of the manufacturer is often missing, on purpose. Many guns were made "for the trade", and only the name of the retailer is shown.
So this may be a difficult search.

fuhrmann

[mike ford]

fuhrmann,
Go back to the special "Der Waffenschmied" on drillings and read my article about bringing a drilling back from the grave. There is a description and photos about the process of rebarreling an old drilling. Basically we made a monoblock( hakenstuck?) from the old barrels( I know it is not a real monoblock-not one piece), into which new tubes were soldered. I couldn't see the holes in the shot barrels, but the one in the rifle barrel is well forward of where the joint would be. The cost of the project, compared to it's value afterward, was not the "driving force" for Czechmate; at least I don't think it was. Like everything else in life, the reality of the actual cost may make him change his mind, but this can only be known after an inspection and estimate by a good gunsmith. The cost will be considerably higher than the drilling I described, because I was able to do much of the time consuming work, and my friend donated two of the barrel tubes.
Mike

[Czechmate]

Czechmate,
Yes, a very thorough job indeed - reversing all this will be a lot of work and expensive.
All barrels drilled, the steel maybe damaged by soldering. I see no way to repair these barrels - bear in mind that any repair has to be re-proofed and accepted by the proof house.
This probably means another set of barrels. Having made new drilling barrels will mean a couple of 1000 Euros.

All the moving parts in the locks are gone, new ones will be another couple of 1000 Euros.

Market value of drillings like yours is very low in Germany, you can check it here:
http://www.egun.de/market/list_items...ode=cat&cat=66

I do not know about market prices in Czech Republic, or what a good gunsmith will charge in your country.

MAYBE it is possible to get another old drilling and use it as donor for the missing parts.
But you have to bear in mind that these guns were made in many different shops, more or less by hand, so all dimensions may vary.
The name of the manufacturer is often missing, on purpose. Many guns were made "for the trade", and only the name of the retailer is shown.
So this may be a difficult search.

fuhrmann

Wow, several thousand euros, that is certainly unjustifiable... I would love to have it working again, but i was thinking about a cost bellow 1.000Eur... Well bellow that... I guess I was being naive... :-) I will try to find some good Czech gunsmith and see what he says... If the price gets over 1.000Euro, it will stay de-weaponized forever...

I was also thinking about the usage of the gun, so I have searched the hunting forums for the 9.3x72 Försterpatrone characteristics and I have to say that there is almost no animal to legally shoot at with this cartridge except roe deer... Seems like this cartridge is very slow and soft, as it has been renamed to "flying dumpling" in Czech Republic... :-)

Anyway, thank you for your response...

[Czechmate]

fuhrmann,
Go back to the special "Der Waffenschmied" on drillings and read my article about bringing a drilling back from the grave. There is a description and photos about the process of rebarreling an old drilling. Basically we made a monoblock( hakenstuck?) from the old barrels( I know it is not a real monoblock-not one piece), into which new tubes were soldered. I couldn't see the holes in the shot barrels, but the one in the rifle barrel is well forward of where the joint would be. The cost of the project, compared to it's value afterward, was not the "driving force" for Czechmate; at least I don't think it was. Like everything else in life, the reality of the actual cost may make him change his mind, but this can only be known after an inspection and estimate by a good gunsmith. The cost will be considerably higher than the drilling I described, because I was able to do much of the time consuming work, and my friend donated two of the barrel tubes.
Mike

Final value is not the driving force indeed, but costs of repairs over 1.000EURo is very prohibitive for me... Unfortunately... And since the gun has very limited use, I couldn't even justify it by using it afterwards as a hunting weapon...

But I am very interested in that article you mentioned... Where could I find it please?

Thank you! :-)

[mike ford]

Czechmate,
Of course you can use the gun for hunting. If you don't want a 9.3x72R, you can have it rebarreled in a different caliber, subject to the gunsmith's advice concerning the strength of the action. When I lived in Germany, I took a Forester friend to a gunsmith friend's shop, to repair his father's old sxs combination gun, which was also 9.3x72R. He had it changed to 8x57JRS. I'm sure this was before you were born, so I doubt my gunsmith friend is still in business, but there are others that can do this work. Maybe your father would help you with the cost, since it means something to him also. The article is in the "Der Waffenschmied" special issue on Drillings. "Der Waffenschmeid" is one of the publications of the German Gun Collectors Association. If you are not already a member, I encourage you to join. You can buy a copy of that issue from the Association's store. If you go to the Association's main website you can find the listing of publications available. If you join, you will get a discount from anything you buy.
Mike

[fuhrmann]

Wow, several thousand euros, that is certainly unjustifiable... I would love to have it working again, but i was thinking about a cost bellow 1.000Eur... Well bellow that... I guess I was being naive... :-) I will try to find some good Czech gunsmith and see what he says... If the price gets over 1.000Euro, it will stay de-weaponized forever...

I was also thinking about the usage of the gun, so I have searched the hunting forums for the 9.3x72 Försterpatrone characteristics and I have to say that there is almost no animal to legally shoot at with this cartridge except roe deer... Seems like this cartridge is very slow and soft, as it has been renamed to "flying dumpling" in Czech Republic... :-)

Anyway, thank you for your response...

Czechmate,

finding a good gunsmith is the way to go forward. All we can do here is discusing theories.
Finding the right gunsmith may not be easy - today most "gunsmiths" make their money by selling clothes ....
You will need one who still knows his craft and ideally shares the love for good old guns.
We will be interested to hear what he says!

My estimate was based on the assumption that all replacements have to be made new.
There may be ways save costs, but still I cannot imagine
1. to have the gun back in working order for less than 1000 Euros
2. that a comparable drilling in original and working order is worth anything close to 1000 Euros (I know german prices and assume not much difference in your country).
So this will be a "labor of love", money spent for your pleasure, never an investment...

The 9,3x72R is not as bad as some people say. Your drilling was proofed for Nitro / smokeless cartridges - without the holes in the barrel you could go forward and shoot modern Sellier and Bellot cartridges.
These are somewhat weaker than some smokeless loads made before the 2. world war, on purpose: not to blow up old guns in bad condition and maybe without Nitro proof.
Still, they are quite ideal for hunting roe deer in the woods.
The "legal limit" for larger animals can actually be reached by handloading, or see here: http://www.impalabullets.at/content/kalneu0606.htm
These legal limits may vary from country to country.

Putting in a barrel for a more modern cartridge might be possible, but they all generate higher pressure, modern 9,3x72R limit is 2000 bar, 8x57IRS limit is 3300 bar.
There are two questions: will this be accepted by the proofhouse and will it stand the testing (this is shooting some proof cartridges with higher pressure) and will is be solid enough for extended use?

Whatever you do, the gun is 100 years old.....
Regards
fuhrmann

[Nathaniel Myers]

A recommendation if I may. . .

First take very detailed, crisp clear photos of the "de weaponization" so that you have them available to send to a prospective gunmaker.

Second, ask around, quite possibly someone here knows, about trade schools in Europe. I attended a trade school here in the United States in the "art of gunsmithing". I have a good friend who attended a similar school in Ferlach. When I attended the trade school they claimed they were the largest gunsmith shop in the United States. We worked on customer guns sent in as part of our education. The prices were very minimal, with the understanding that students were performing the work. Nothing left the building without being inspected and passed by one of the instructors. You may be able to find something similar, somewhere, and have the work preformed.

I would also say, if you brought me that gun there are other options. The action appears to have been welded, which can cause some distortion and issues, but potential the face would only need cleaned up, the holes reopened and possibly bushings inserted. Then opening the barrels and making one of more einstecklauf to shoot available lower pressure cartridges.

[mike ford]

Czechmate,
The gunsmiths I mentioned above, both have websites, you shouldn't give up until you consult the websites. I don't know the people running the shops now, but did know the gunsmiths that started both businesses. In both cases, the current people were trained in the shop, by people that I know could do the work, and there is every reason to believe they can also.
Nathanial,
You might be interested in the article, mentioned above, also.
Mike

[yamoon]

A shame to destroy a work of art, I am thankful for the 2nd amendment.
Mike

[Nathaniel Myers]

Mike,

I enjoyed that article very much.

Mike (yamoon),

As am I.