Haenel Commercial 88 Sporter (9.5x57?)

[Nathaniel Myers]

I recently had the good fortune of purchasing this rifle. I purchased this rifle along with another and it does not have much of an interesting story, but I will get to the other rifle, which does!

I will leave the speaking to the experts, I am excited to hear their input. The seller made no claim to what the chambering was, he gave me a few cartridges and stated that they had come with the rifle.

[Nathaniel Myers]

[Nathaniel Myers]

[Nathaniel Myers]

[Nathaniel Myers]

[Nathaniel Myers]

Trigger pulls are 4lbs 4oz and 4oz. My scale isn't that accurate, but I am extrapolating.

Now, where I think this gets very interesting. What little I know is as follows. Please expand, correct, denounce as necessary.

V crown proof signifies that the barreled action was on hand at the time the 1891 proof law was enacted.
G crown proof signifies rifled barrel
U crown proof signifies the view or inspection
R crown proof signifies repaired or reprooved barrel.

What are the S crown markings on a number of the parts?
What is the large script S?
TH, script S and markings on the bottom of the barrel?

So the two things that interest me MOST are the V proof and the R proof.

THEN, looking at the details... I get confused.

The 108.49 marking should mean 8.89 (.350) to 9.12 (.359) bore. With gauging and slugging I get 9.16 (.3606) to 9.18 (.3614) at the smallest points. This, along with the chart stating that this is very common for 9.3's makes me think, 9.3

On my SLUG the GROOVE dimension is 9.47 (.3728)

Then I did a chamber cast to see what else I could determine.

The groove diameter in front of the case measured 9.55 (.376) at its largest point. I checked 4 or 5 times because I was very uncertain of this.

The throat in front of the case neck is 10.16
The case neck is 10.38 and tapers slightly to 10.43. Right behind the shoulder it is 11.61 and tapers to 12.00 at the very end of the CHAMBER. From the end of the case to the end of the chamber it is very close to 54mm. I say very close because I do not have two good faces to get a consistent measurement. I will get a picture up tomorrow or the next day to clarify all these measurements so they are a little easier to understand and follow.

So, is it a REALLY tight .375, or a REALLY loose 9.3?

Rifle manufactured by Haenel, possibly just the barreled action along with the bottom metal then shipped to FR Nuemeyer Freisig?

[Nathaniel Myers]

I was really hoping for a 9.3 originally, or possibly a 10.75 for something different. I load for several 9.3's now, but a 9.5 is not something on my list!

[mike ford]

Nathaniel,
The crown G, crown U, and bore diameter( 108,49), were not on the rifle, when it was "born", otherwise it wouldn't need the crown V. They were placed on the rifle at the time of the crown R. Since I was just a baby when this was done, it is not possible to say what "repair" was done. It may have been rebored, or it may have merely been resubmitted to satisfy the new owner that it passed the actual proof. In my opinion, the rifle is chambered for 9.5x57 AKA .375 Express 2 1/4". This cartridge is uncommon, but was well respected in the game fields as a good general use cartridge for gathering food and protecting the livestock and family from harm. My unsolicited opinion is you should rejoice over the caliber. If you don't want the rifle, you could easily trade it off. You have expressed an interest in something I have, and I would like to have a 9.5x57.
Mike

[Axel E]

IMHO this M88 actioned rifle was made by Haenel "little rooster" tm and the serial number on steel buttplate in Haenel fashion. As the crown/V Vorratszeichen shows, it was completed, ready for sale by March 1893 and so proof exempt. After April 1, 1893 Haenel had it proofed according to the new law.
The chambering is quite enigmatic. As I wrote before, "Waidmannsheil #56", nothing was standardized before 1909, many different dimensions made to the whim of the gun- and cartridge makers. At first glance the rifle appears to be in 9.5x57 Mannlicher-Schoenauer, but that cartridge appeared in 1911 only. If the rifle had been rebored/rechambered for that cartridge from spring 1912 on, the bore diameter would have been marked in mm istead of a gauge number. So we have to look another direction. The DWM 1904 catalog lists a very obscure, forgotten cartridge, case number 393. Dixon, page 117, calls it 9.4x56 aka 9.5x56 aka 9.55x56 and dates it to "about 1893".
The only info available from the 1904 DWM catalog:

case length 56 mm = 2.2". Neck inside 9.55 mm = .376". Base and rim 11.95 mm = .470"
The catalog also lists an absurdly long, heavy fmj rn bullet as "for case #393":

Diameter 9.60mm = .378", weight 25.7 g = 397 gr!
The bolt face recess of an M88 bolt is 2.7 mm = .106" deep. You have to add this to the case length obtained from a chamber cast. At the time the rifle was made, very tight, grossly undersized barrels by todays standards, were quite common. Myself, I have slugged pre-WW1 8mmI barrels as tight as .315" groove diameter. So the forgotten 9.4x56, DWM case # 393 may well be the short-lived cartridge the rifle was intended to use.
I have nothing on a gunsmith or dealer "Fr. Neumeyer in Freising".

[mike ford]

Nathaniel,
Does the 9.5x57 round that came with the rifle chamber, without problems?
Mike

[Nathaniel Myers]

Here is a picture of the 9.5 after loading. The bolt closed with some light pressure required. Enough that I would say the case is not correct.

I will upload and link the picture later so you can see it better.

I tried a few experiments. First I took a 9.3 and necked it out then seated a bullet way out. Upon inserting it in the chamber, nothing. The bullet didn't move and showed no evidence of contacting the rifling or throat. Then I necked another case up to 9.3 and gently started a .375 bullet with a large boat tail. I don't have any 375 dies at the moment, and this worked surprisingly well. I left the bullet hanging out way long and inserted it into the chamber (via the bolt).
Ever so gently I closed the bolt and then opened the action. The case came out, but no bullet!

Both cases chambered with no issue which tells me either expanding the neck is pushing the shoulder back or the 9.5x57 has a shorter neck and the shoulder is further forward. I will have to take some more measurements. I ordered 100 270gr .375 RN bullets, midway had them on sale and it seemed divine providence, so ordered them. I think I will load a few up with gentle loads to see if I can get the case to fire form. Then I believe I am going to order a 9.3x57 die set (hornady is $40). Bump the neck sizing portion out to Axel's dimensions and order a .373 button. .002 should be enough neck tension.

That of course depends on what the fire formed brass looks like.

Mike, sent you a private message. I realized my previous post may have been misleading. It's not that I don't WANT a 9.5, rather, at this time I don't own a .375. So no tooling or bullets. I have a .375 barrel blank for a 1908 Mauser action that someday will grow up to be a .375 H&H. Squirrels and ground hogs can get mighty unruly around here.

[mike ford]

Nathaniel,
I answered your PM. BYTW, I still think the rifle is 9.5x57. Instead of 1911, it was introduced by the Austrians(Roth?) in 1910, for the MS Mod 1910 rifle. DWM or other German manufacturers may not have loaded it until later. This gives a short, but adequate, window for reboring/rechambering before 1912 changes to proof marks. You can easily make a . 372"( or whatever size you need) expander to fit an "M" die and neck out 9.3x57 case.
Mike

[Axel E]

Mike, I disagree here. IMHO the rifle was indeed chambered originally for the DWM #393 9.4x56 case. This 1893 case is so close in appearance to the 1910 9.5x57 M-Sch that just a slight change in shoulder angle or diameter makes it different, well inside the 1890s – WW1 case and chamber tolerances. The Steyr and Roth factories in 1910 may have merely copied the forgotten older DWM case when they offered their own 9.5x57. At least, the 1910 M-S case has not the 11.85 mm base of the 8x56 and 9x56 M-S cases, but the 11.95 mm base of the 8, 9, 9.3x57 Mauser cases, just like the 9.4x56 DWM. Contrary to popular belief the 9.5x57 M-Sch is not merely a 9.3x57 opened up to take .375" bullets, but a somewhat "improved" number: the length to shoulder is .62 mm = .024" longer and the diameter at shoulder .45 mm = .018" larger. This amounts to some headspace if you merely neck up Mauser brass and try to use it in a 9.5x57 M-S chamber.

[mike ford]

Axel,
I don't disagree about the original chamber, as the rifle is ca.1893 and 9.5x57 is from 1910, and could not be the original caliber. Dixon acknowledges that the 9.5x57 is based on the M88 case, rather than the smaller MS case, in spite of being introduced by Roth as their case number 811, for the MS mod 1910. While I would use military 30-06 cases rather than 9.3x57 headstamped cases to make 9.5x57, its not difficult to fireform the shoulder forward, using either of a couple tricks to keep it in place. (see Dixon, pg 140-141) ( I use Military cases because I have them and they don't have the wrong caliber in the headstamp)

[Nathaniel Myers]

I had completely forgotten to link the above picture. I will try to do that.

I received the .375 bullets, they are quite different design that what is in the 9.5x57 cases I reciever with the rifle. I ran into an issue I have not had before. If I seat the bullets to the same cartridge over all length as the M88 rounds, the ogive of the bullet is a smaller diameter than the case neck. The originals being much more cylindrical.

I had difficulty working up a load. I found Connelly had 9.3x57 w/ 286gr bullet and made some comparisons with powders to other similar case capacity, and bullet diameter, loadings. I came up with a very conservative load of 35gr of Varget. If anyone disagrees with this loading, PLEASE let me know.
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My hope is to shoot the rifle this weekend. With that in mind I started working on a temporary stock to use as a shooter. It is hard to see, partly because it was a decent job, that the stock is broken at the wrist. However, I say decent because the person put no reinforcement where the break was. It looks as though they just glassed the stock. I took a junk M98 stock that had been previously mutilated by someone and began opening it up for the M88 action. I looked at purchasing one, but finding an affordable stock in decent condition didn't seem available. Seeing how thin this action is and how tall the action is, it is no wonder these stocks are frequently cracked.
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I spoke with my stock maker last week about repairing the stock, he promises me that after he is finished I won't even be able to tell it was ever broken. He was also of the opinion that I'll break my shoulder before the stock breaks there again. Here's to hoping. However, he won't be able to start until after October. I just can't wait that long to shoot this!

If I am able to shoot it, I will try to post a target and velocities.