Asking for a little help with a RS 9mm Shotgun.

[Acera]

Acera,
Where did you live and when were you there?
Mike

I was stationed in Kitzingen, on the Main River (just outside Wurzburg) from 89-91. Was lucky enough to be there during reunification, great time to be in Europe.

[Acera]

Diz, you got a picture of that Hanquet, or a link to the thread where you talk about it?

Kiwi_bloke that is interesting information. I just figured that since most everything I have seen from that era was marked with 'West Germany' it was a universal thing. Now I know better. When you mentioned the checkered flag, I started to remember that flag being pretty common, going to check some pictures later this week and see if I can find in some of mine.

Thanks everyone for the help.

[mike ford]

Acera,
I was stationed in Wuerzburg 71-73, and again 75-82 ( this time as a DA Civilian). My Rod and Gun Club was the Kitzingen Club. Was Hugo Schmidt still the manager when you were there? I hunted all over the area and loved every minute I was there. We should talk sometime about old memories.
Mike

[Acera]

Small world Mike.

I hope that was your most dangerous overseas deployment during your service. Tough times to be in the armed forces of the US. We had some of the more senior NCOs and officers from that era still working with us youngsters. I bet some of the restaurants and bars we went to were pretty much unchanged since your time. After DS/DS they disbanded my unit there, 1/15th INF, and I returned to Ft. Benning to be an instructor. Had a friend serve there a few years later, and she did not like it. The base is abandoned now, I still check it out from time to time on Google Earth, easy to recognize all the familiar sites. I did not know the staff at the Rod and Gun club, spent most of my free time in town or traveling. I looked into a couple of Anschutz rifles I wanted to buy and bring home, but soon realized that the paperwork, etc. was too daunting to overcome. CO was not a firearm enthusiast, quite the opposite, and I think some obstacles were imposed at that level. In hindsight, probably should have soldiered on and got them.

[mike ford]

Acera,
The year before going to Germany I was in Viet Nam, that might have been more dangerous, but the Bader Meinhof(?) gang was active in Germany then, so maybe not. I knew the 1/15 Inf, pretty well, we ( I was with the Facilities Engineers) renovated barracks and other facilities for them. The world is even smaller than you thought, from 83 until 98, I also was at Ft. Benning, in the West Georgia Area Office of The US Army Corps of Engineers. I retired right before they started building new Facilities all over Ft Benning.( I was also there in 68-69 in the 43d Engineer BN ( Const.) and the 931st Engineer Group. As active duty military, the paper work to bring guns back was really pretty easy, compared to civilians. You missed out, if you never went to Waffen Jagd ( formally Waffen Frankonia) Wuerzburg, I absolutely loved the place. I live only an hour from FT.Benning now and drive through, going to visit a gunsmith buddy in Cusseta, pretty frequently. I still have all my Doctors in Columbus,so I go every couple months. During the Clinton and Wes Clark time, a lot of advantages soldiers had in Germany went away. Google Earth is heartbreaking. Do I remember correctly that you live in Texas, or was that someone else? My grandson just moved to Austin, there is a girl there and that means more than "POP".
Mike

[Acera]

Thank you for your service in S.E.Asia Mike.

I remember guarding military housing during some of those terrorist scares when I was there.. We really appreciated the fact we stood guard with our M-16s and no ammo. Those barracks you renovated were probably the last changes the infantry units got. We knew of tunnels under them, could see it in the frost on cold mornings, but never got the chance to explore them. The Air Force units got some nice updates right before I got there, but we did not. I liked Germany, the people were friendly, great food, great drink, beautiful country. Some of the best times of my life were after we got back from the desert and before coming home to the US. Heck the French even liked us for a few weeks. A lot of the cab drivers were military vets, and we gained a new connection with them during that time. They were the most welcoming and hospitable people when we returned (not that they were not before, they just took it up a level).

We probably crossed paths at Ft. Benning, after Germany it was nice to go out in the evenings and do something other than drink and sing. Enjoyed my time on Kelly Hill a lot more than over on Sand Hill.

You mention Cusseta, first thing I thought of was a Ranger Burger, even though the Sniper Burger was my favorite. I hope they are still in business and cooking up some good food. Made me hungry.

I do remember a firearm shop in Wurzburg, don't remember the name though.

Regarding your grandson, we say the good thing about Austin is it is only a short 10 minute drive from Texas. If you get a chance to visit, Austin has some good gun shops and some not far. Great German heritage is alive and well not far from there. Fredericksburg is close and other than great people and food, you can visit the National Museum of the Pacific War and Texas Jacks (the Cimarron Arms factory store). That part of Texas is really nice. Got family up there.



.

[mike ford]

Acera,
The 4 Winds is still there, unless they just closed it. The Sniper Burger(junior) is my favorite too. The last time I was there, they had changed owners, it was still good, but not the same. The new owner has BBQ also, she had a BBQ joint before the 4 Winds. During my first tour in Germany, A 500 pound bomb exploded under the area they had held the German/American fest at Harvey Bks. It happened on a Sunday morning, so no one was hurt. It was left over from when we bombed the airfield in WW2, it just waited 28 years to explode. My best friend was in EOD at the time, and when they found out their building had one from the same raid under their building also; they moved to Lawson Bks. Just an interesting tidbit. I loved every minute we lived in Germany, I didn't come back to get away from it; I came back so my kids could be around family. My office built( by contract) the buildings in both Kelly and Sand Hills.
Mike

[Diz]

Acera,

First, let me say thank you for your service. Here are a couple pix of my Hanquet, not German and rather plain but in very good shape otherwise.

F Hanquet Liege Cape rifle.jpg


Ferdanand Hanquet Cape rifle I.jpg

Thanks, Diz

[Acera]

Mike, I remember walking the cemetery in downtown Kitzingen, one date really started standing out. Was explained that was the day Wurzburg was clouded over and the bombers rerouted there. I remember reading about unexploded ordinance when I was over there.

Those festivals were fun.

Kinda good news that 4 winds is still there, could not remember that name. Is it as popular with soldiers today as it was 25 years ago?


Diz, I like that gun. Do you shoot it? Hard to find that kind of craftsmanship today for a reasonable price. The exposed hammers are a favorite of mine. Don't own any guns like that, herself has a modern exposed SxS. My SO is one of these people who can not get enthused about plastic and parkerizing. She would spot a firearm like that from the door of any gunshow we go to, and walk directly to it, even if it were covered up and 100 feet away. So to fit her needs, we spend a lot of time looking at fine wood and blued steel. (Her AR-15 even has a wood stock, only way I could get her to own one.) Made the mistake of showing her a Sauer M30, now she wants me to find a reasonably priced 'one of those', LOL.

[Diz]

Acera,

I have been working on the gun and loads for some time now and it's starting to come together. I shoot a lot of vintage shotgun matches and an occasional double rifle/combo gun match but want to do more. All my serious guns have hammers and most are Damascus. PM me if you like and we can discuss it further.

Thanks, Diz

[mike ford]

Acera,
Yes, the 4 Winds is still popular with the soldiers that are still there. The problem is, there are not nearly as many as there were even 7 1/2 years ago.
Mike

[Axel E]

Ám I safe to assume that the '73' stamp is the manufacturer date (or when it was proofed prior to leaving the factory)?

Maybe Sarco INC?? Could that be the importer stamp?

Curious why this would not have been marked "Made in West Germany" instead of just "Made in Germany".

Yes, I believe it was proofed in 1973, before it left the factory. As I mentioned before, for the change in legislation there was practically no market any more in Germany after 1972. IMHO the Rhoener Sportwaffenfabrik, like others too, unloaded their unsellable stock on Sarco Inc., known to me as a dealer in surplus and closeout offerings.
The official label was always "Made in Germany", as the federal republic regarded itself as a provisional State in Germany officially. The eastern GDR also used "Made in Germany" for export puposes most of it's time. Some now West German companies, notably Zeiss and Sauer &Sohn, complained about the socialized GDR companies continued to use the old company names for export purposes. This led to some confusion, especially if it came to quality and liability complaints. They wanted to stop the GDR companies from using the prestigious "Made in Germany" label too for their often inferior stuff. But the highest West German federal courts ruled the use legal, as the GDR was still regarded as a part of Germany. So some, not all, companies started to mark their products "Made in West Germany" to distinguish them from the GDR wares with the same company labels.

[Acera]

Thanks Axel, that explains a lot. I've just seen so many items marked with the West Germany, I just figured it was the norm, or required. Glad to get that cleared up.

Was the process for a maker to produce a firearm. Then send it out to an independent proofing service, who tested it and marked it with their stamps if approved. After which, they sent it back to the original manufacturer who then processed it to a distributor or dealer? I think in the US most all the manufacturers do their own testing in house. However I can see independent proofing companies being suited to handle a wide variety of smaller makers, who can save money by contracting out that part of the process. This would provide an unbiased confirmation of their safety goals being to standard. Am I off base with this?

You guys are a wealth of knowledge.

[Acera]

Acera,
Yes, the 4 Winds is still popular with the soldiers that are still there. The problem is, there are not nearly as many as there were even 7 1/2 years ago.
Mike

Yeah Mike, Not happy about the lack of soldiers (more importantly why we have a lack of soldiers), feel it is a bad trend. Got a cousin who is an outstanding officer who is planning on not making Major due to reductions, etc. Hate to see him have to leave the service with 16+ years experience, perfect record, multiple combat tours etc..

[Axel E]

Then send it out to an independent proofing service, who tested it and marked it with their stamps if approved. After which, they sent it back to the original manufacturer who then processed it to a distributor or dealer? However I can see independent proofing companies being suited to handle a wide variety of smaller makers, who can save money by contracting out that part of the process. This would provide an unbiased confirmation of their safety goals being to standard. Am I off base with this?

The Continental European proofhouses are not "Independent companies", but government institutions since 1893. So they are Independent of all gunmaking companies, be they large or single man shops. Small gunmakers of course have to send in their guns for proofing. Large factories sometimes have a branch of the government proofhouse in house, or proofhouse officials visit the factory from time to time to do the proofing. But in any case the proof inspectors are government officers, not employed or otherwise dependent on the gunmakers.