Haenel 9mm Commission 88 Sporter

[mike ford]

The 118,35 is the bore(not groove or bullet)diameter, expressed as a gauge measurement. This is often found on older 9.3 and 9mm rifles. In my experience, barrels with this mark most often "slug" at .357-.359". If you check Nathaniel's web site, you will find out how much such a barrel will cost. With this type mark, the rifle would have been made between 1893 and 1912.
Mike

[JDZincavage]

The 118,35 is the bore(not groove or bullet)diameter, expressed as a gauge measurement. This is often found on older 9.3 and 9mm rifles. In my experience, barrels with this mark most often "slug" at .357-.359". If you check Nathaniel's web site, you will find out how much such a barrel will cost. With this type mark, the rifle would have been made between 1893 and 1912.
Mike

If not the groove, by "the bore" you mean the land diameter?

What is Nathaniel's web-site?

[Dan Patch]

JDZ: The figure of 118.35 is the gage of a pure lead ball corresponding to .340 in, and a cylindrical steel gage of that size (.340 in.) is the largest of a graduated series that will pass between the lands of this particular barrel. The next step up in the series is .350 in. and is about 108 gage in that series. As Mike said in 1912 (or so) the German civil proof houses dropped this archaic English measure and substituted gaging based on tenths of a millimeter. The system doesn't so much tell you what the bore diameter is, as that it tells you it's smaller than the next larger increment. Dan

[JDZincavage]

11.835 mm. = .465944882 or .466 inches So in what is the gauge being measured?

[Dan Patch]

The English gage/gauge system is based on the number of lead balls of a certain size that would weigh one pound. A pure lead ball weighing one ounce is "16 gauge" because sixteen pure lead balls of that size would weigh a pound. In this case a lead ball of which 118 (give or take) would weigh a pound would have a diameter of .340 in. The mark "118/35" on your rifle's barrel indicates a gauge of 118.35. The slash is actually a decimal point.

A steel cylinder of .340 in. diameter will enter your rifle's bore, but one of .350 in. (the next increment in this system as used in the German proof houses) wouldn't. So the bore is at least .340 but less than .350. It doesn't make much sense now, but in eighteenth-century England it was useful enough. Dan

[mike ford]

Nathaniel's website address is shown in each of his comments/replies. BTY the bore diameter of a rifle barrel is the diameter of the hole bored in the blank, before it is rifled. In blackpowder days, bullets were commonly bore size or smaller, and the blackpowder upset the soft bullets to fill the grooves. With todays smokeless powder and jacketed bullets, we most often use groove diameter bullets, because they don't upset sufficiently to fill the grooves. The common use of the term bore diameter to mean groove or bullet diameter is incorrect.
Mike

[JDZincavage]

The English gage/gauge system is based on the number of lead balls of a certain size that would weigh one pound. A pure lead ball weighing one ounce is "16 gauge" because sixteen pure lead balls of that size would weigh a pound. In this case a lead ball of which 118 (give or take) would weigh a pound would have a diameter of .340 in. The mark "118/35" on your rifle's barrel indicates a gauge of 118.35. The slash is actually a decimal point.

A steel cylinder of .340 in. diameter will enter your rifle's bore, but one of .350 in. (the next increment in this system as used in the German proof houses) wouldn't. So the bore is at least .340 but less than .350. It doesn't make much sense now, but in eighteenth-century England it was useful enough. Dan

But both 9x57 Mauser and 9x56 Mannlicher Schonauer are supposed to fire .356 bullets, according to Cartridges of the World.

[Nathaniel Myers]

If I were to hazard a guess. If you slugged the barrel of your rifle, the result would measure in the neighborhood of .348 BORE and .356 GROOVE. .004" per side, .1mm per side gets you your .008".

It could be many things though. Slugging is always recommended for this reason. I have two 9.3 drillings, both are marked, one 8.7mm, one 8.8mm.

Your bore could be as SMALL as .340 (not likely) but not bigger than .349. Your groove diameter could be many things. Grooves can vary based on caliber, bullet type, and time period. .003 to .006 per side is not out of the realm.

Keep in mind the manufacturing of the time. .01mm is .0003937"

[sharps4590]

It could be a lot of things, slug the bore and remove all doubt. If you ran a .356 down the bore of my J.P. Sauer and Sohn Mauser in 9 X 57 you'd be .006 over groove diameter. Don't assume anything with the old rifles.

[mike ford]

You will find that Cartridges of the World contains many mistakes. The 1989 version of "Wiederladen" (in the tables in the back) shows a bullet diameter of 9.08mm(.357"), but a groove diameter of 9.06mm(.356"). These are subject to tolerances of manufacture and the 9x57 rifles I have slugged had a groove diameter of .358". I have heard of others with groove diameter of .352". A German friend that loaded for his M88 in 9x57, always used .358" Norma bullets and loading data directly from the .358 Win. table.
Mike

[JDZincavage]

It's been coming back to me that, after I bought this rifle, decades ago, I took it to very good CT gunsmith, who did slug it, and who decided that it was chambered for 9x56 MS. I had 9x56 MS loaded up by a specialist in out-of-print ammunition, and fired it several times in this rifle. It shot about a foot high at 100 yards, but was dead on right to left. I'm still looking for the empties, but I certainly looked closely at the time, and I recall seeing no signs of excess pressure. 9mm bullets just were not on the marker, and I believe the ammo I got was loaded with .358 jacketed bullets. I do not believe the loader swaged them down.