Haenel 9mm Commission 88 Sporter

[JDZincavage]

I bought this rifle decades ago at a gun shop in CT. I concluded (I don't remember exactly how) that it was chambered in 9x56 MS. I got ammunition in that caliber and shot it. It fired about half a foot high to the point of aim with the fixed sights at 100 yards.

More recent correspondence has raised the possibility that the real chambering was always 9x57 Mauser. I'm wondering. I'd rather not buy a $45 box of 9x57 from the Old Western Scrounger. Would anyone care to sell me one round for $10?

Photos:

Haenal.jpgHaenal1.jpgHaenal2small.jpgHaenal3small.jpgHaenal4small.jpg

[JDZincavage]

More:

Haenal5small.jpgHaenal10.jpgHaenel6small.jpg

David

[Nathaniel Myers]

That is a Haenel 1900/1909 auctioned rifle. Axel will fill you in more, as it is very different from the 88

[mike ford]

David,
Nathaniel is correct, your rifle is a mod.1900. If you look in this forums previous threads, you will find other discussions of these rifles, including photo of some of Axel's fine rifles. Also, there is no doubt your rifle is chambered for 9x57, not 9x56 MS. They are not the same, but are more similar than the numbers make it seem. The Austrian designation of case length typically does not include the rim. If this does not satisfy you, PM me your mailing address.
Mike

[Axel E]

This is an email I sent to JDZ today, trying to answer his email question:

imho all the German Haenel rifles were chambered in the German 9x57 Mauser originally, not the "outlandish" Austrian 9x56 Mannlicher- Schoenauer. Maybe the assumtion being in 9x56 M1905 Mannlicher-Schoenauer comes from the misinterpretation, going back to pre-WW1, that the Haenel rifles were called "Mannlichers" in English speaking countries. Se the attached A.H.Funke, New York, ad and my recent letter about the subject.
Before the 1920s, nothing regarding barrel, chamber and cartridge dimensions was really standardized, see my "Normalisation" article in "Waidmannsheil # 56" and my "Some thoughts on Mannlicher-Schoenauer cartridges "in # 57. Manufacturing tolerances were "generous". Sometimes even cartridges of the same designation by one maker did not even fit guns chamberd for the factory loads of another cartridge maker. Due to such manufacturing tolerances, most M1905 Mannlicher-Schoenauers will accept 9x57 Mauser loads as well. In the 1920s and 30s Remington even made "compromise" 9 mm cartridges, labeled "Adapted to Haenel-Mannlicher, Schoenauer-Mannlicher, Sauer and Schilling Mauser rifles".
Knowing all the proof- and service load markings on your rifle, most are found under the barrel, may help to identify the chambering.
Apparently shooting 9x56 M-Sch loads in a 9x57 rifle does no harm. You should closely compare one of your 9x56 M-Sch loads to a case fired in your rifle. Look for any minor changes in the shoulder area.
Waidmannsheil!
Axel

[Axel E]

About the "Mannlicher" actions: The real story is completely different. As you will see, the famous "Mannlicher – Schoenauer" action has no features designed by Ferdinand v. Mannlicher, 1848 – 1904, any more.
To counter the French introduction of the 8mm Lebel rifle, shooting 8mm bullets, the Germans, mostly the Prussian army, followed by the Bavarian one and the armies of the other German states, needed a modern smokeless smallbore rifle too, and they needed it fast. The Prussian army rifle testing commission tried to combine the most advanced features known then into the new army rifle. They simply copied the French 8 mm barrel and combined it with Louis Schlegelmilch's improved M71 bolt with two forward locking lugs and detachable bolthead. Louis Schlegelmilch was the head gunsmith of the Prussian Spandau arsenal. He designed the turn bolt action now usually associated with "Mannlicher" To Schlegelmilch's turning bolt breech action the commission added Mannlicher's en-bloc clip magazine. Like in the much later M1 Garand, Mannlicher's clip was fully loaded into the single stack magazine. After the last shot was loaded from the magazine, the empty clip fell out of an opening in the magazine. They also added Mieg's barrel jacket and, after some experimenting, Rubin's rimless case design. Prussia then had the habit of not patenting any design of military importance, especially not an invention by a government employee like Louis Schlegelmilch.
Though the clip was improved over Mannlicher's design, it still infringed on Mannlicher's patent. So sort of a "gentlemen's agreement" was met with the Austrian ams factory in Steyr: The Germans were allowed to use Mannlicher's en-bloc clip magazine. On the other hand, the Steyr factory got an order for several hundred thousand military rifles for the German armies and was allowed to use Schlegelmilch's turning bolt for their own export rifles. F.v.Mannlicher's own bolt designs then were all straight pull actions.
As the production capacity of the German government arsenals was insufficient, not only Steyr, but Ludwig Loewe, later DWM, Berlin and the Suhl factories of C.G. Haenel and V.C. Schilling got substantial orders for the new M88 commission rifles and carbines too. As usual in Suhl, both Haenel and Schilling subcontracted many more smaller Suhl gunmakers for parts.
Now to the Steyr "Mannlicher" evolution: After filling the huge German orders, Steyr continued to make rifles with M88 actions, Schlegelmilch's turnbolt and Mannlicher's magazine, for export to China and several South American countries. And they slightly redesigned the action (as to ejector mostly) and adapted the action and magazine to use their new 6.5x53R Mannlicher cartridge for their own export M92 and M93 Roumanian and Portuguese as well as the M95 Dutch military rifles. As the Steyr factory sold these military rifles to all comers, they soon became quite popular throughout the British empire for sporting use. Especially George Gibbs of Bristol and several noname Birmingham gunmakers sporterized, restocked, resighted and refinished these military rifles to different degrees or grades. As these Steyr made rifles were labeled "Mannlicher's Patent", regarding the magazine only, thay became known as "Mannlichers" in the English speaking part of the world. After 1895 the Mauser stripper clip loading, flush magazine became popular. The protuding Mannlicher magazine with it's dirt catching opening was not competitive any more for any new military rifle. Steyr could not use Mauser's staggered magazine, then state of the art, for patent reasons. Their director Otto Schoenauer designed his own rotary magazine, stripper clip loading too, and fitted it to the basic Schlegelmilch turnbolt action instead of Mannlicher's magazine. So the famous "Mannlicher – Schoenauer" was born, first the model 1900, then the Greek military 1903, both for the rimless 6.5x54 cartridge, later the 1905, 1908, 1910, 1924, 1925, 1950 and 1952 sporter models. All these actions retain most dimensions of Schlegelmilch's M88 bolt to be nearly interchangeable. I know a M1908 Mannlicher –Schoenauer that works since the 1950s with the slightly modified bolt head, firing pin, spring, firing pin sleeve, nut and safety of a German military M88, and a M1925 in 7x64 with a Dutch M95 bolt.
After 1898 Haenel, Suhl, faced a similar problem. They too were set up to make the obsolescent M88 action with Schlegelmilch's bolt and the now obsolescent Mannlicher magazine. They still exported M88 action military rifles to many corners of the world and made sporting rifles in several grades, but foresaw the demise of Mannlicher's magazine. So Haenel too tried to upgrade their turnbolt rifles to make them competitive again. Like the Steyr factory they added their own, patented flush, stripper clip loading magazine to the basic Schlegelmilch action, added a gas flange, a new ejector and the two –piece "safety" firing pin.
So both the "Mannlicher – Schoenauers" and the Haenels M1900 and 1909 are in fact parallel developments. None retains any Mannlicher design features. So lumping them together under the "Mannlicher" monicker is popular, but wrong anyhow.

[mike ford]

David,
Please note the last part of Axel's explanation, that in spite of the fact that your rifle and the mod 1900 MS have the same model number, they are not the same rifle.
Mike

[JDZincavage]

Haenal.jpg

I should have mentioned that this ad is from the 1910 Abercrombie & Fitch catalogue. Cartridge performance measured via penetration of pine boards was the standard thing before WWI.

[JDZincavage]

SidePlate.jpg I was attempting to remove the action of this rifle from the stock in order to photograph the proof marks, but I do not have the necessary tool needed to turn this screw plate. Does anyone know a source for the appropriate tool?

[Axel E]

You don't need to remove this to disassemble the rifle. It is the recoil crossbolt, mounted permanently in the stock to avoid splitting. The recoil lug of the 1900's receiver merely abuts against this crossbolt instead of the wood.

[Nathaniel Myers]

If you remove the bottom screws, and the wedge, the bottom metal should come out, then the action. Depending on the fitting it may be a very tight fit. I have worked on several high end custom mauser's that the fit was literally one to one and the barreled action had to be lightly tapped out of the stock.

[JDZincavage]

If you remove the bottom screws, and the wedge, the bottom metal should come out, then the action. Depending on the fitting it may be a very tight fit. I have worked on several high end custom mauser's that the fit was literally one to one and the barreled action had to be lightly tapped out of the stock.

You're right. It was just very tight. Those diabolical German gunmakers deliberately installed those faux screw-plates so that forgetful foreigners would think the action wasn't coming out because they needed a special tool from the factory in Suhl to remove the mystical two-hole side-screw.

The first proof mark is on the rear bottom of the barrel:

BarrelProof.jpg

And here's the old-time Teutonic measurement, which I expect will translate as 9mm:

Proofmarks1.jpg


David

[JDZincavage]

If you remove the bottom screws, and the wedge, the bottom metal should come out, then the action. Depending on the fitting it may be a very tight fit. I have worked on several high end custom mauser's that the fit was literally one to one and the barreled action had to be lightly tapped out of the stock.

You're right. It was just very tight. Those diabolical German gunmakers deliberately installed those faux screw-plates so that forgetful foreigners would think the action wasn't coming out because they needed a special tool from the factory in Suhl to remove the mystical two-hole side-screw.

The first proof mark is on the rear bottom of the barrel:

BarrelProof.jpg

And here's the old-time Teutonic measurement, which I expect will translate as 9mm:

Proofmarks1.jpg


David

[Nathaniel Myers]

The chart I have shows 118/35 as .340 to .349

Crown/N and large crown should be the 4k ATM test, though may just represent smokeless powder.

[JDZincavage]

Should be something like .354-.356.

Can you imagine what it would cost today to get somebody to mill out a barrel going from so many inches of octagonal to round and incorporating an integral rib?