There's more 'n one way.......

[sharps4590]

........to load a cartridge!!

I have been waiting on a set of dies for my Schuetzen rifle for I believe 3-4 months and they aren't here.....yet. I have been wanting to work with that rifle and had tried some loads but never got close to what I believe is its potential. In fact the results were abysmal. I remain convinced that was because as yet I had no way to properly size the neck of the formed cases. The die I made is drilled a bit off center and pushes sort of a shoulder on the case when used. Obviously my machine skills could use some improvement....a LOT of improvement. As the mold for the 9.3 X 57 had arrived and I've cast quite a few bullets for it I'm now waiting for them to cure.....which got me to thinking about the Schuetzen rifle while I was at my casting bench.

A sizing die is a sizing die, right? What I mean is if a bullet sizing die is of hardened steel or tool steel as is a sizing and decapping die then they perform the same function whether the material sized is brass or lead, right? All I needed to do with the Schuetzen cartridge case was to neck size it. Soooooo.....as I have several oddball bullet sizing dies if I had one that would take the case neck to the proper diameter and could figure out a way to make my ancient Lyman-Ideal sizer/luber work I could size the case necks to the proper diameter.....right? I dug through my container of sizing dies and found one I thought might work. It is the .372 die for the 9.3 cast bullets. I discovered that by changing the pin that pushes the bullet out of the sizer/luber it would open wide enough to allow the case to enter. A little minor lathe work and a new pin was made then cut to length after trial and error. The .372 die was installed in the sizer/luber, a case neck was lubed with regular case lube, case inserted and made certain it was centered and I "shoved it on home". It came back out with less resistance than a sized bullet.....GREAT!!!! Now to measure the case mouth and check a bullet. Doggone it......still a bit too big. I knew I had a .363 die but feared it might be too tight. Still, that's only .009 which is .0045 a side. I changed dies and "shoved it on home" again. Same two checks, dimensions and with the bullet......hmmmm....this might work.

As I don't have the dies for the .345 caliber rifle and that is.......at best an unusual caliber.....I needed to figure out how to bell the case mouth. I have a really strange set of 38 Spl. dies. The belling die has two calibers on it, one for 38 Spl. then one above it for about 40 cal.....which is a bit big for a .345 bullet. They are the only set of dies I have ever seen that way. I'm game to try about anything to make the rifle shoot accurately at this point so I screwed the 38 Spl. die into the press and put one of the newly neck sized cases in the shellholder, raised it into the die and just barely bumped the handle. I couldn't even see the ram move. Pulled the case out of the die and it had a very slight flare in the case mouth, then I tried a bullet. Son-of-a-gun!!!! This WILL work I believe!!!!!!

I only did 10 cases as there was some doubt and I didn't want hours spent doing something that might not work. I loaded the 10 cases with 20 grains of Reloader 7, seated the bullets then took the bell out of the case mouth by inserting them into my 32-20 taper crimp die. 10 loaded cartridges! Now it was time to see if I was right about the crooked sizing die I had made and if the rifle would shoot somewhat like I thought it should given its excellent bore. Off to my little home range, staple up a new target and settle down at the bench with front rest and butt bag in place. Below is the target. Shots 1 & 2 were completely off the paper high. I dropped the rear sight adjustment quite a bit and returned to the bench. Shot 3 landed in the 6 ring and #4 in the 7. As can be see they're still nothing to talk about at 50 yards, benched and bagged. There was only one thread of elevation adjustment left and I took it then turned in a little right windage and decided to fire the remaining 5 rounds for a real group. They went into a cluster of 1 inch with 4 under 5/8 inch, C to C. I hope the group can be even tighter next time out as I was really fighting the sun on the big eye cup on the aperture sight. I need to crank in just a bit more right windage but that will come later. Oh, I had to make a little wrench for the sight adjustment square headed screws and it is at the bottom in the 6 ring. It started out as a piece of 1 1/2 X 1 1/2 angle iron 3/16 thick. Hand ground and filed and hopefully a little temper given to it!!! The rifle is in the second picture.

[Sarge756]

Your title is true for sure. There usually is more than one way to get r dun. Have had to do some experimented like that for my 280 Ross. Loading .284 rather than specified .287 bullets by neck sizing with 7mag die after full length sizing with the Ross die. Accuracy improved big time. Not near as many steps as you had to go through but happy with results as I`m sure you are. That`s a good group with the last 5. Little bit of sight adjustment and you will be on the money.

[mike ford]

Vic,
Good show, now you can see the benefit of buying "do dads" you don't need, if you find them cheap, because they are for some caliber no one shoots anymore. This also includes tooling for your lathe, to help you keep things lined up. The more dies you have, the better chance you have to find something that works; that is true, but with a lathe, you can make it. Also whenever you make a tool, it adds something to your "tool chest". A couple things I have found very useful over the years are an "M" die with a variety of "shop made" ( as need arises) expanders. These are shaped to expand necks, hydraulically decap berdan cases, bell cases, etc. Also a "ring sizing die" ( available from bullet swaging die manufacturers), with a variety of "shop made" sizing rings, which can size necks, as well as jacketed bullets. Believe it or not, but a 7/8-14 split threading die is very useful, as it allows "chucking" loading dies to "run true" to the thread for shortening. Loading dies so shortened are often a viable substitute for an expensive custom made die, and are still useful for the original caliber. Keep letting us know solutions you come up with; I, for one am not ashamed to learn from someone else.
Mike

[sharps4590]

It's kinda takin' the long way around the barn but by golly I got there!! I'll have to second an "M" die strongly. I need to acquire another. I had to think about that 7/8 X 14 split treading die but I finally got my head wrapped around it.

I had another little difficulty with the new 9.3, 270 gr. mold I just got from Accurate. Seems dodo here forgot about it being a bore rider and the nose is too big as cast. I ran the bullet nose first into a .350 sizing die and can now crimp it in the crimp groove rather than seating it so deep. I really need a .353 or .354 die for the nose to be the correct diameter but it shoots ok....but I've only tried 10-15 rounds.

[Diz]

Sharps,

Thanks for taking the time to tell us about your 137 easy steps to load a cartridge. Hah Hah! But really a very interesting way to get it done and some outstanding results considering all the steps. That's a fine looking rifle too. As Mike said having a load of tooling around certainly helps and a good lathe will work wonders. Great job and keep us up to date on how it goes.

Thanks, Diz

[sharps4590]

Diz, I have it narrowed down to 114 steps now that I've done it twice....

After reading your post and Mike's again I'm thinking on how to make a more correct belling/flaring button for some of these cartridges for which I have none.

[mike ford]

Vic,
I went to pull some bullets from 300 Ackley Mag. ammo to make hunting loads for a 300 Weatherby rifle I just acquired from the estate of another longtime friend that recently passed away( it is dangerous to be my friend). To do this, I had to change collets in my Forester collet type bullet puller. A close look leads me to believe the body of the puller can be used to make a ring sizing die, similar to the one I use. The shoulder that stops the collet( or " ring" in this discussion) is located deeper in the body, than in the one I use. This may be an advantage if you are sizing case necks. In mine, I have to size them "by eye" because it can't be adjusted high enough. To make one up, you would have to make a threaded, hollow bushing to hold the "rings" down, and some "rings" with an outside diameter to fit the die body, and inside diameter to solve whatever problem you had. If you will use it for jacketed bullets( ie go from .321" to .318"), you will need a rod to push them all the way through the die. You can make one to use a regular shell holder, by fitting a threaded extension to it through the hole for the priming arm, with a "nut" to hold it. I also examined my C-H bullet puller. The shoulder inside is closer to the end, but the collets have a smaller outside diameter. The inside shoulder being closer to the end might be an advantage when sizing bullets, but other than the difference in diameters, to use the C_H would be substantially the same as Forester. Somewhere in my " junk pile" I also have a Herter's, that is so similar to the Forester that I suspect it was made by them. If you don't have one of these three, you know what to look for at the gun shows/ flea markets.
When I first started loading 9.3x72R, I used my 9.3x74R dies. I made a tool to manually expand the neck and bell the case, with a small hammer. To adjust and control the depth, I put an adjustment screw in the end, to stop on the "web" of the case. This was before I woke up to the "M" die ( can also use other expanding dies that have 1/2"-20 inside threads). Sorry about being so long winded, but I get pretty excited when other people start doing this "stuff" also.
Mike

[Diz]

Mike & Vic,

This is great stuff because you are giving away some very hard earned experience here. You've pretty much hit all the points so I won't try to "expand" on it further. Nice, very nice indeed.

Diz

[Axel E]

For my own odd neck sizing jobs I use short sleeves or rings too, turned, bored, reamed, polished to the needed size on my lathe. I turn the outside so they fit into the body of a cheap LEE Universal Case Expander die, instead of the expanding plugs. They are held in place by the top screw. These die bodies are long enough to even accomodate cases and sizing rings for cases 75mm long. The same die body also holds home made special expanders or inserts for bullet seating.

[mike ford]

Axel,
Your solution seems to be more available, since Lee products are almost everywhere. Without having one of the Lee dies to examine, it seems your solution might also be adaptable to "rings" for sizing jacketed bullets, but would have to make a hollow threaded plug, to replace the "top screw". That way your one set could do the work of my two( I do remember you already use 7/8-14 threaded dies to size .429" bullets to .424" for your 10.75x63).
Mike

[Nathaniel Myers]

I don't have the experience reloading of Sharps or Mr.Ford, but I will add this. "Hardened" dies are not very hard. And carbide is cheap now a days. Modifying an existing die is quite easy should you need to.

I have in the past even turned tapered sizing tools to bump up the ID of a case if I am unsure of WHAT exactly I want. O1 is easy to heat treat for most "home shop" guys. Fairly in expensive as drill rod to make dies and tooling from.

The way I tend to do things might be a bit much for most guys... so I won't bore you with the details.

[Axel E]

but would have to make a hollow threaded plug, to replace the "top screw".

That aluminum "top screw" or plug is already hollow most of the way to the top. I forgot to mention: I have drilled mine all the way through, but most to be able to insert a rod for punshing out any stuck objects, just in case. My .423 bullet sizing die was completely home made, threaded 7/8-14 on my lathe.

[mike ford]

Axel,
I didn't know it was already hollow, I never used one of them. If it will "clear" whatever bullet you need to size, you are "home free", you would only need to make the ring die( it doesn't need to be very thick 1/4"( 6.5mm) should be enough.

Nathaniel,
When I shorten loading dies they have been hard enough to "Squall" a good bit, even with a sharpened carbide tool cutting center to outside, until it gets past the hardened skin. I agree about the drill rod, I keep a stick of 7/8, 5/8, 1/2, and 1/4" on hand all the time( plus other "drops" I pick up wherever I can).
Mike

[Diz]

I usually anneal all my "orphan" dies until they are soft enough to cut with high speed tools then if they are to be used for bullet sizing I don't normally case harden them unless I have a batch of parts going in anyway. I find they last forever just pushing lead through them and they are a lot easier to machine and polish. Many sizing dies can be cut off with a wheel at a point where the ID matches the bullet or very close to it and used with a push through ram. The case taper will center the bullet pretty well before it actually swages and the short profile of a cut die allows the bullet to just pop out the top. I have quite an assortment now.

Thanks, Diz

[sharps4590]

You guys are all so far ahead of me with machine work. I'm trying to absorb all this.....and am grateful for it.