German Rifle scopes from the 1950's to present

[wernerhelm]

I am wanting to put scopes on 3 of my rifles and am interested in putting an older scope on them.
Is there any points of concern on using an older scope?

[mike ford]

wernerhelm,
Post war scopes, no longer mounted on a rifle, were removed for a reason. That reason may or may not have been because they were clouded, dark, too small exit pupil diameter, or otherwise not up to the quality of more modern scopes that have coated lenses and are filled with inert gas. Also the reticle may have broken. Steel body scopes likely had half rings soldered to them. These rings will not fit your bases. There are people that can clean and repair old scopes and remove soldered half rings. The cost of this work will be part of the total cost of mounting it on your rifle. Even full rings with screws were mostly mounted with the rings epoxied to the scope and will be difficult to remove. Scopes with traditional dovetail rails will have holes in the rails, that may or may not be covered by the new mounts. None of these concerns are insurmountable, it's just that you should be aware of them.
Mike

[Nathaniel Myers]

I have managed to buy several very nice German scopes that are 50's era that are clear and readily usable. Of course, mounts are an issue. I have mounts, but no rings. I'll be making myself a set of rings, for my bases.

Recently I bought an AKAH 4x and a Hensoldt Dural -DIALYTAN 4X both are as equally clear as a new Luepold vx III but both gather light much better at dusk/evening.

Everything Mike said is an issue. And is wise to consider. Unless you set on having a vintage scope I would buy a new tube and buy a set of new vintage style mounts. Ie claw rings and bases.

[mike ford]

I have agonized over mounting scopes on vintage(old?) rifles for a long time. Ernst Apel Wuerzburg(ERA) has a system that converts old claw mounts to swing mounts, yet can be returned to former condition, if desired. Such a system overcomes several problems with mounting different scopes in mount bases intended for entirely different scopes. Using existing technology already in "public domain" such a system could be made here to use available rings requiring very little modification. We just need someone with the ability and willing to do it.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Mike, can you describe how that is done?

[mike ford]

Vic,
The system replaces the dovetail front mount plate with a dovetail plate for a swing mount( think Redfield front base, but wide enough for to fill up the dovetail in the base).Then an adapter is fit to the rear base, using the "slide" plus epoxy to hold it. This adapter is cut to accept a lever release rear ring. This is for the ones that want to be able to return to claw mount bases, by replacing the front dovetailed plate and removing the rear adapter by heating it enough to break the epoxy loose. For those that don't need to go back to claw mounts, they will mill the engraving off the rear base and attach a better base, or they can replace the rear base with a new one using their patented locking system. Since the scope "swings", rather than tips off, the length of the scope, ahead of the front ring is not critical.
Mike

[wernerhelm]

I appreciate all of the knowledge and advice on the scopes and mounting. I will update once I buy some glass.

[sharps4590]

Thanks for that Mike. I gather from your first post it isn't available in the US at the moment?

[mike ford]

Vic,
I don't know. I think New England Custom Guns handles some of their products, I don't know if they have these.
Mike

[Axel E]

Post war scopes, no longer mounted on a rifle, were removed for a reason. That reason may or may not have been because they were clouded, dark, too small exit pupil diameter, or otherwise not up to the quality of more modern scopes that have coated lenses and are filled with inert gas. Also the reticle may have broken. Steel body scopes likely had half rings soldered to them. These rings will not fit your bases. There are people that can clean and repair old scopes and remove soldered half rings. The cost of this work will be part of the total cost of mounting it on your rifle. Even full rings with screws were mostly mounted with the rings epoxied to the scope and will be difficult to remove. Scopes with traditional dovetail rails will have holes in the rails, that may or may not be covered by the new mounts.

Mike, I disagree here again: Most of the 1950s -70s scopes offered on German ebay now are in perfect shape, optical and mechanical. They were removed from the rifles because the German hunters are brainwashed by scope makers and gun scribes who report on new products. Most hunters here believe now a big variable, at least 2 ½ - 12x magnification, with a front lens more than 2" in diameter, and with an illuminated reticle, to be an absolute necissity for successful hunting. Myself, I have shot most of the game in my life with 4x scopes. My experience: You don't need more magnification to hit the boiler room of a roe at any reasonable range. A 4x is still usable for fast running shots at spitting range. With a variable, you have most often dialed the wrong magnification if needed fast. My favorite scopes are still the old , 1960s – 80s, Hensoldt/Zeiss 4x Diatal/Diasta models. (You pay about Euro 50.- to 100.- dor these on ebay)
Lens coating was still at a high level in 1960s German scopes. It was Improved by just a few percent over the years. On the other hand, "modern" scopes, especially variable ones, have to contain more lenses than the old ones. Each additional lens eats up light. Another so-called disadvantage of the old German scopes: The image of the reticle moves out of center with extreme adjustment. To me, this is more of an advantage in a properly mounted scope. The reticle is moved in relation to the straight optical axis of the scope. On "modern" scopes the reticle stais centered in the image. So elevation and windage adjustment needs additional lenses and bending of the optical axis. Let alone the mechanical delicathy of the adjustments…
Now to the inert gas, usually nitrogen, filling of modern scopes: As insiders of both Zeiss and Schmidt & Bender told me, that's nothing more than an advertizing gimmick, invented by American companies. As the market demands so, they do it of course. But of course they did their own laboratory research too. A rifle scope has to have at least three movable adjustments: focusing, elevation and windage. There simply is no absolutely gastight gasket that still allows movement. Now, a hunting rifle scope is subject to changing atmospheric pressure from sea level to high mountains and common weather, plus changes in temperature . Their laboratories looked inside their own and competitor>'s scopes for the durability of the nitrogen fill: After mere 2 years you find nothing else than just plain air in any nitrogen filled scope. BTW, plain air is 78% nitrogen itself. Their tongue-in-cheek advice: "Buy one of our newest scopes every three years at last!"

[mike ford]

Axel,
I'm not too surprised that you disagree, we disagree on other things, as well. Look at my comments again; I said the reason "may" or "may not" be.... I don't really believe you think all removed scopes are good, any more than I believe they are all bad. The advantage you have is your location near people than can work on the old scopes and reassemble them after soldering/unsoldering half rings. I too used mostly a 4x scope( a Nickel Supra mounted in 1970s,-see "A combination for all seasons" in Waidmannsheil). I just got it back from having to have the rusted/broken reticle repaired. The delivery time was more than a year, and in addition to the cost, I was forced to give up a good German low light reticle for a common American x hair. In my other experience, I lost a 4x Hensoldt I sent to replace another rusted/broken reticle. I think that workman died, and I never got the scope back. When I have to take a deer, for some reason, I reach for a drilling with a 6x Hensoldt, or a Mauser with an 8x Kahles. I too prefer fixed power scopes, and when forced to use a variable, I set to to give the most power, yet still have close to a 7mm exit pupil diameter and leave it there. In low light, whatever I can see at 10 meters with my naked eye, I can see at 60 meters with the drilling or 80 meters with the Mauser. This is not as important for shooting as it is for ansprechen(?).
Mike

[Leatherman]

Axel, I think some of our US scope manufacturers would disagree with you. I like to have period scopes on my pre war guns and think the modern scopes just don't look right on the Drillings and double rifles once you see the original guns with their smaller diameter tube scope with the marvelous claw mounts and primitively adjustments. The proportions and finish just look good on the old guns. When I put a scope on a pre war gun that has claw mounts but no scope I use the older Weaver scopes from the 50 and 60's . Although they are 1" tube scopes I think they still have that old style period look of blued steel that the pre war German scopes had and they also have a generous amount of eye relief that modern scopes don't have so they replicate the old Germanic scopes in these ways as well. You can even find Weaver scopes with the post rectical although not identical to the German version but close. The best part is they are easy to find at most gun shows and on EBay usually for less than $100 USD. I would never take one of my pre war scoped guns out in a heavy humid / rainy day as you know they have no seals whatsoever in the focus adjustment and I think your asking for trouble so I use the Weaver scopes in those conditions. Other than a smaller field of view and chance of a fogged scope on humid days , I have no problem hunting with the pre war scopes and get a little more satisfaction doing so. I agree the scope manufacturers push their latest technology and it is quite impressive but you don't need it to be successful.

[wernerhelm]

I purchased a Zeiss 6x42 Diatal ZA and a WaffenFrankonia Wurzburg 6x42 which the seller had listed as manufactured by Schmidt and Bender. The scopes are going to be mounted on mauser98 sporters that had already been modified by someone else for modern mounts.....id like to go Bach to the claw type mounts but I cannot afford it at this time.
I'll post more information once I get the scopes in.
Once again I appreciate all of the info my fellow members have provided on this topic.

[jillandsam303]

Axel, I'm following your and Mike's conversation about "old" vs. "New" scopes for "old" guns with much interest.

As I've said on this great site, I'm now the proud owner of a what is hopefully a Fred Adolph drilling. It came with a Kahles Helia 2X Super 2/S2 model 15 in good shape. But as mounted, the eye relief is almost unusable. I have to move my face too far forward on the stock to see clearly. As you can see in the photo, the rings don't allow any movement backward to correct this. So...I'm looking for a suitable "old" classic scope that has a usable eye relief and that fits in the mount and rings. Any ideas?P1100426 (2016_03_14 18_23_08 UTC).jpg49224a11 (2016_03_14 18_23_08 UTC).jpg Thanks so much!

[mike ford]

jillandsam303,
As I said on another forum, under another name, if this were a Fred Adolph drilling, his name would be on it in a prominent location. He mostly imported guns made in Suhl, by others, "on order". These other craftsmen did other work for other people. It is likely that your rifle was made for another customer, by some of the same craftsmen that worked on Adolph guns. Not being an Adolph gun doesn't make it less than what it is. Now to your scope problems. In my entirely uneducated opinion, the scope you have was not the scope that was original to the claw mount bases on your drilling. In my opinion, the original scope was lost over the years and was replaced with the Kahles, in the US. The original scope was likely mounted in "half rings", soldered to the scope body, with the front one soldered to the objective bell. This allowed a longer scope, mounted farther back. When a scope is mounted in claw mounts, the bases are located for the particular scope, to give a particular eye relief. A different scope type mounted with this same eye relief is highly unlikely. You are not likely to get the result you are looking for. Other alternatives seem to be: Mount a "scout scope" farther forward in the same rings( may need shims); mount a scope with rail in new "rings"( not actually rings); mount same scope in new "offset" rings ; have scope of your choice mounted in new bases and rings; convert to "swing" mounts, maybe with "off set" front ring. The problems you are having are precisely why I sometimes seem negative when talking about trying to find an old scope to fit bases on a drilling. I'm not trying to "throw water" on anyone's plans, I just see the potential problems.
Mike