Sauer drilling/9.3x47?

[osekerschan]

Just bought a Sauer & Sohn hammered drilling, 16x16/9.3? It has all the regular imperial proof marks on the shotgun barrels including Nicht Fuer Kugel on the left barrel. The rifle barrel has the serial number 77146 and below it 56 H. Next are the G and U proofs. There are no load markings or chamber markings just the barrel gauge number 108/49. It was sold to me as a 9.3x72R, however that cartridge lacks about half an inch from chambering.

A chamber cast shows a distinct ridge at 1.89 from the cartridge base and that is the length of the 9.3x47R. The rifling starts at 3.0175 from the base of the cartridge thus leaving about 1.25 inches of free bore if it is the 47R or just right if it is the 72R.

Would appreciate any advice to make the old gun shoot again.

Hans

[sharps4590]

I've always seen that cartridge listed as the 9.5 X 47R....but I am light years from knowing everything...or very much, truth be told. What does the bore slug and what is the case head dimension? The X47R cartridges were based on the 11.15 X 60R case and it's quite a bit bigger than the 9.3 X 72R. The X47R is approximately .513 and the X72R is approximately .427. That's 0.086 difference, oughta be obvious.

[mike ford]

Hans,
First, I have to say that since I haven't seen or handled either the drilling or the chamber cast, the following is only a "best guess". I think the drilling is indeed a 9.3x72R, but the "D" version instead of the " norm" version, which is likely the configuration of the cartridge you tried to chamber. There is no doubt the drilling can be made to shoot again. There are a couple ways to do this. You can load your own ammunition, pretty easily. While you didn't mention handloading, your text indicates you may be familiar with the process. If you reduce the case diameter at the point of interference, enough to chamber, you can then "fireform" the case to fit the chamber. In some cases the case rims must be modified, usually by thinning, to chamber. Once you have fireformed cases, you can use the normal loading dies, without having to have a special set of "D" version dies made. The normal dies will function, essentially, as "neck sizing" dies. BTW, other rifles I have seen with the bore marking 108/49, have groove diameters of .362-.364". This will mean you will not likely be able to buy bullets at the local "Hook & Bullet" store. There are reasonably available sources, however, or you could cast your own lead bullets( I don't know where you live, but if it is in Europe, you can likely find S&B 193gr FP bullets, made for their 9.3x72R ammo). In my mind, handloading is an enjoyable part of our hobby; but if you are not so inclined, you can have your drilling rechambered to accept "norm" version ammunition. I normally advise against rechambering any old drilling, but this particular conversion is one that can be accepted. Indeed, the "norm" version was devised for the purpose of rechambering old drillings to accept a standardized factory cartridge. I and others on this forum will be more than willing to help you with this effort.
Mike

[Jim Cate]

As best as I can determine from my Sauer database, your Sauer Drilling was made in 1910 or '11. Mike Ford may well be correct regarding the caliber as I have noted in my database these different Sauers: 1/ 77054 is a Drilling (16 gauge) in 9.3x72R, as are 77152 (a rifle - shotgun combination) in 16 gauge and 9.3x72R, and 77538 which is a Drilling in 16 gauge and 9.3x72R. There is no indication that any of these are other than the normal 9.3x72R. Please have an expert do a chamber cast and proceed from the results. Rechamber it if necessary. Regards, Jim Cate, author of the Sauer books.

[mike ford]

Jim,
I'm not at all sure they made any identifiable difference, even for the 9.3x72R S&S. They were only marked with the bore diameter, in gauge measurement. Even when they changed to mm and added case length, you couldn't tell the difference. For a while Suhl marked the bore dia. in mm, but didn't mark case length. I wrote about a Sauer BF, I have, marked without case length. I bought it as a 9.3x74R, and used it for years with 9.3x74R ammo before finding out it is really a 9.3x72R S&S( this may be in your data base, I emailed you about it once.). If they were all clearly marked, they would be as boring as an "ole".270.
Mike

[sharps4590]

In line with what Mike said about it being a 9.3 X 72R with the older chamber not long ago I had the privilege of helping an elderly gentleman get his brass to fit his drilling. His situation sounded identical to yours and it turned out the drilling was the older chamber for the 9.3 X 72R. I had made a die to take down the body of the case to fit my 9.3 X 75R Nimrod and it worked for his brass also, after annealing.

[osekerschan]

Gentlemen,
First I must clarify my previous post. The suspect chamber was not a 9.3x47R but 9.3x48R. At 48mm the chamber cast drops from .398 to .388 inch leaving a distinct ledge. From 48mm to 72mm there is no interference to the cartridge chambering. The tight spots are all in the bottom 48mm. The local gunsmith recommends renting a reamer and cleaning up the chamber. Since the shot barrels have been lengthend to 2.75 it wouldn't affect the value. Will consult my machinist friend about a die to reduce the tight spots of the brass first. I have the RCBS 9.3x72R dies and load for a Hubertus BBF in this caliber. The barrel slug is about .360-.362 as Mike suggested. Jim's dating is appreciated.

Weidmannsheil and THANKS to all of you for your help and information!

[osekerschan]

Gentlemen,
First I must clarify my previous post. The suspect chamber was not a 9.3x47R but 9.3x48R. At 48mm the chamber cast drops from .398 to .388 inch leaving a distinct ledge. From 48mm to 72mm there is no interference to the cartridge chambering. The tight spots are all in the bottom 48mm. The local gunsmith recommends renting a reamer and cleaning up the chamber. Since the shot barrels have been lengthend to 2.75 it wouldn't affect the value. Will consult my machinist friend about a die to reduce the tight spots of the brass first. I have the RCBS 9.3x72R dies and load for a Hubertus BBF in this caliber. The barrel slug is about .360-.362 as Mike suggested. Jim's dating is appreciated.

Weidmannsheil and THANKS to all of you for your help and information!

[mike ford]

osekerschan,
If the chamber is really 9.3x48R, I would be very hesitant to rechamber it. An actual 9.3x48R could use very available 30-30 cases, shortened and fireformed. Since you already load for 9,3x72R, you know cases are not nearly as available, nor as cheap as 30-30. Your description of the chamber still sounds very much like the "D"(Deutscher) version of the 9.3x72R. This version has a "sweeping" or compound taper to the case, rather than a straight taper. It looks almost like it was chambered for the British 360-2 1/4"(9.3x57R) and then throated to 72mm with a straight throating reamer. To reduce the tight spots, I would try a 38-55 die, before having one made. As I remember Sharps 4590 found out, you would need to use a die that has the decapping pin screwed into a larger bushing( with 1/2"-20 thread). Removing this bushing leaves room for the case to fit completely through the die. Since the 38-55 case is abought .005" smaller in head diameter than the 9.3x72R, the reduction should be enough to make the case chamber. If you still insist on rechambering the drilling, and can bring it to East Alabama, we can do it here. I have a reamer that will work( may have to modify pilot to fit your barrel).
Mike

[sharps4590]

Dadgummit....Mike is right!!! His memory is better than mine...which comes as no surprise. I did get a Lee 38-55 die and grind out the threaded part where the decapping stem screws into the sizing die so the case would fit through. The die I made was to take .355 bullets down to .352-.353. Good thing I have all that stuff written down......somewhere....

[osekerschan]

Gentlemen,
Based on your suggestion have just used a 38-55 die on a new Norma case and it did not reduce the tight spots. Later I will try the squeeze and pound method. At this point I suspect that the chamber was originally 9.3x72R, probably the D version, that someone tried to normalize with a 9.3x48R reamer.
Hans

[osekerschan]

Gentlemen,
Based on your suggestion I have tried the 38-55 die but it did not relieve the tight spots. later on will try the total immersion and pound out method. I do suspect that the original chambering was 9.3x72R/D and someone tried to "normalize" it with a 9.3x48R reamer.
Hans

[mike ford]

oskerschan,
OK, I usually recommend the 38-55 die, because it is the least aggressive and easiest. Where it doesn't work, I would try a 35 Rem. die. First, I would smoke the case with a lighter or candle(some find a magic marker more convenient), and attempt to chamber it, with some force. This will show where the interference is. If it is closer to the head than where the 35 Rem shoulder is located, then the Rem die won't work either. If the interference is ahead of the 35 Rem neck, then it should work. If none of this works, you can size the cases as much as possible, wrap it with a layer of paper or file label and drive it into the chamber(protect the case head with a piece of wood or plastic), then drive it out with a rod or dowel. Part of the problem is I am giving advice, without knowing precisely what is happening; I have to apologize for that. I would help me understand, if you could post photos of the chambercast or the smoked and chambered case. Since you continue to wonder about the 9.3x48R, it would be helpful if you fireformed a 30-30 case and post a photo of it. The configuration of the fireformed case should confirm or eliminate the 9.3x48R. This would also give an indication of two other cartridges, which could "fit" the proof marks. The first is the 9.3x57R( 360-2 1/4") and the other is the 9x58 1/2 R S&S( although this is most often marked 118.35) If it is one of these, it might be better to fireform an original length 38-55, or 32-40 case, to get into the shoulder area. The rim of these American cases will likely need turning to fit the rim recess of the drilling. As I always say, a lathe is a necessity of life.( as an afterthought, I actually use a 38-55 file/trim rather than sizing die, but they are scarcer than sizing dies, they might be "tighter" also, but I don't know)

Mike

[osekerschan]

Mike,
As you can see from my double postings my internet skills are limited, posting pictures eludes me. A 35 Remington will not work because the interference is in the first inch (bottom end) of the chamber. I did try a 40 S&W sizing die which reduced the case but not enough. Will talk to my machinist buddy about altering a case on the lathe.
Hans

[osekerschan]

Mike,
As you can see from my double postings my internet skills are limited, posting pictures eludes me. A 35 Remington will not work because the interference is in the first inch (bottom end) of the chamber. I did try a 40 S&W sizing die which reduced the case but not enough. Will talk to my machinist buddy about altering a case on the lathe.
Hans