New to me 1941 Krieghoff drilling 12ga65mm/12ga X 5.6x35R with pics

[Mario Giberti]

Bought a Krieghoff drilling, should be in on Thursday. I have dealt with this gun shop for years, with a number of unusual guns purchased.

I have a three day return period, and am fortunate enough to know a Churchill trained London gunsmith who has a shop 10 miles from my house, just over the border in Maine! He has a lot of experience with German guns. I will have him look at it.

Here is a link to the gun I bought with photos.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/94268960...12x5-6x35R.htm

Krieghoff Drilling Waldschutz 12ga65mm/12gaX5.6x35R Eagle N proof,made in January 1941,serial #20311,nice bores,set rifle trigger,95% barrel bluing.

I saw another one mentioned with a number around 18000 that was 1935-6, so 20311 would make sense as a 1941 gun.

So Jan 1941 was during ww2, any chance this was a military gun? Who would be buying these in 1941 other than the military? I am sure the German authorities limited gun purchases by civilians by Jan 1941.

I have a case of 12 gauge short for my cape gun, so that is all set. And I understand 5/6 by 35r is 22 hornet, or very close to it.

[Diz]

Mario, It is my understanding that the 5.6x35R is the same as the 22 Hornet, however I think it would be prudent to have your gunsmith slug the bore and perhaps a chamber cast to double check everything before shooting. I am sure that others more knowledgeable than myself will have more to add. It is an interesting combination, good luck with it. Diz

[kcordell]

The Waldschutz is a fantastic drilling. Upon inspection of the gun on gunsamerica leads me to believe that the butt stock is not original to the gun. Also, Per your question on military use, I am only familiar with the Sauer contract but others more knowledgeable here on military usage of sporting / survival weapons can chime in. IMHO, I don't think they would use that calibre rifle though for military use.

[fuhrmann]

The 5,6x35R Vierling is close to the .22 Hornet, but not identical.
Actually it is a smokeless version of the .22 WCF.

Hunting rifles certainly were produced in Germany during WWII.
I am not aware of any limitations imposed on hunters, to purchase guns then.

[Mario Giberti]

Thank you for all of the responses. In looking at the photos, I can now see that the butt stock does not look original, thanks for pointing that out.
I have seen Kreighoff drillings with scope for $2600 with original stocks.
Not sure if I want a non original gun.
Is 12 gauge short more uncommon in drillings than 16 gauge? And how common is 5,6x35R Vierling?
I believe my gunsmith said that my cape gun with 12 short was more rare than it would be in 16 gauge. It was more expensive to order or buy the gun in 12 short than in 16 gauge?

[Mario Giberti]

Gun is not coming in until Friday now

[sharps4590]

I don't know about any extra cost for a 12 bore over a 16 bore but the 16's outnumbered any other significantly. I can't speak precisely to the Vierling cartridge but one doesn't see a great number of them.

[Diz]

Mario,

In my reference books only the 22 Hornet is listed as "also know as the 5.6x35R Vierling" and the dimensions are almost exact. The 22 WCF is almost exact in the head and rim dimensions but the case length is short. Also, the bullet diameters are different for all of them depending on which version of the drawing you are looking at.

The 12 gauge 2-1/2" shell should be fine. I use them for sporting clays with good results. Thanks, Diz

[mike ford]

There is an article in a recent WAIDMANNSHEIL, explaining the relationship between the 22 WCF, 5.6X35R Vierling, and 22 Hornet(5.6x36R Hornet). Production of Sporting guns, near the end of the War, was limited by most of the men of hunting age being gone, and by the ones left at home, being short of funds. As far as I know, there were no additional lawful restrictions on the ownership of guns, above those normally in place. The gun could have been chambered for either the Vierling or Hornet, and even without the possibility of rechambering, it wouldn't be very easy to tell the difference. By the time this drilling(Schienedrilling) was made, they were required to be marked with the name of the cartridge that it was normally known by( no more bore dia. and case length, only). This indicates it is likely the Vierling cartridge, but should be checked anyway. The gun was made 3/4 of a century ago, which is a long time for undocumented changes to have been made. I suggest you gently close the gun on a new factory Hornet case. If it closes w/o "slamming", it is likely a hornet, if it doesn't close or is hard to close, it is likely a "Vierling". While you are checking, it wouldn't hurt to check the shot chambers' length also. Upon viewing the photos, I noted the drilling is a conventional drilling, and not a schienedrilling, as the use of the term Waldschutz led me to believe.
Mike

[Mario Giberti]

There is an article in a recent WAIDMANNSHEIL, explaining the relationship between the 22 WCF, 5.6X35R Vierling, and 22 Hornet(5.6x36R Hornet). Production of Sporting guns, near the end of the War, was limited by most of the men of hunting age being gone, and by the ones left at home, being short of funds. As far as I know, there were no additional lawful restrictions on the ownership of guns, above those normally in place. The gun could have been chambered for either the Vierling or Hornet, and even without the possibility of rechambering, it wouldn't be very easy to tell the difference. By the time this drilling(Schienedrilling) was made, they were required to be marked with the name of the cartridge that it was normally known by( no more bore dia. and case length, only). This indicates it is likely the Vierling cartridge, but should be checked anyway. The gun was made 3/4 of a century ago, which is a long time for undocumented changes to have been made. I suggest you gently close the gun on a new factory Hornet case. If it closes w/o "slamming", it is likely a hornet, if it doesn't close or is hard to close, it is likely a "Vierling". While you are checking, it wouldn't hurt to check the shot chambers' length also. Upon viewing the photos, I noted the drilling is a conventional drilling, and not a schienedrilling, as the use of the term Waldschutz led me to believe.
Mike

Mike
Thanks for the reply. can you further explain schienedrilling. That is rail drilling, per a translation. Waldschutz means forest protection?? Sorry for my ignorance. If you have a link you can send that would help, I would appreciate it.
I am trying to decide whether this drilling with a replacement buttstock is worth $2k. I will not be able to afford another one, and prefer original guns.

[mike ford]

Mario,
Translation of German hunting and gunsmithing terms into English very often does not work out to be the same as normal German to English. One of the words in that category is "schiene" in normal German it means rail, as you said, but the ribs on a drilling or double gun are also called schienen. Not to confuse things any more, the rail on some lightweight German scopes is also called a schiene. A schienedrilling is a drilling that has the rifle( naturally a small caliber)barrel as the top rib. For small game hunting, they are really pretty neat. I am given to understand there was a schienedrilling with the manufacturer's name or model of "Waldschuetz". This is why, inspite of my poor German, I would rather struggle with it, than the computer translation( it took me half a day to figure out that a "one put running" is an einstecklauf). I wouldn't buy a drilling because I thought I could make some money, I buy them to use and it wouldn't be nearly as useful if I were afraid to get it wet or scratched. If I were considering that same drilling, I would be more disturbed that it is 12 ga. This is why pickup trucks come in different colors, I guess.
Mike

[fuhrmann]

Mike

let me add here:
a Suhl company (forgot which one) had a registered brand name "Waldläufer" (woodsman or ranger) for their Schienendrilling, and that name stuck and is now quite in generic use.

The Krieghoff "Waldschütz" (note the Umlaut) was a drilling with normal configuration, another and somewhat confusing brand name. "Waldschütz" is an old term, also a quite common family name in Germany.
Sounds like "woods hunter" , but the origin might also be "woods warden".

Regards fuhrmann

[Mario Giberti]

Mario,
Translation of German hunting and gunsmithing terms into English very often does not work out to be the same as normal German to English. One of the words in that category is "schiene" in normal German it means rail, as you said, but the ribs on a drilling or double gun are also called schienen. Not to confuse things any more, the rail on some lightweight German scopes is also called a schiene. A schienedrilling is a drilling that has the rifle( naturally a small caliber)barrel as the top rib. For small game hunting, they are really pretty neat. I am given to understand there was a schienedrilling with the manufacturer's name or model of "Waldschutz". This is why, inspite of my poor German, I would rather struggle with it, than the computer translation( it took me half a day to figure out that a "one put running" is an einstecklauf). I wouldn't buy a drilling because I thought I could make some money, I buy them to use and it wouldn't be nearly as useful if I were afraid to get it wet or scratched. If I were considering that same drilling, I would be more disturbed that it is 12 ga. This is why pickup trucks come in different colors, I guess.
Mike

Mike
Thanks for the information. Interesting with a top rib is the rifle barrel on the schienedrilling. I am not interested in making money on the drilling, just want to make sure that it is worth $2k with a replacement stock on it. I am trying to figure out what the market is, and how much a similar gun with the original stock would run. You are indicating that 16 gauge are more valuable than 12 gauge. I appreciate the info.

[sharps4590]

I don't know that 16 bores are more valuable than 12's and I can't speak for Mike. Certainly 16's are infinitely more common. 12 bores always feel much more cumbersome to me than 16's. The difference in frame size is significant in my hand. 12's just don't feel right. However, I've always been a fan of the 16 since I was a little boy as that's what Dad used. For my shot gunning purposes a 16 will do all I need done...although I do lust for a certain type of 10 bore. Goes back to Mike's different color pick-ups.

[mike ford]

I think 16 bores are more valuable, because I agree with Sharps4590, but I recognize that this is a dissenting opinion, the same as the losing side in a Supreme Court decision. Axel opines that more new drillings are 12 bore, than 16. I may write an article about this and other of my opinions that go against the "norm".

fuhrmann,
Thanks
Mike