looking for correct scope mounts

[toadboy65]

So I have a nice 1935 Suhl drilling, which has never had a scope mounted. I have a matching scope with dovetails from a previous installation. I need a source for the parts to install period correct scope mounts. I have a good machine shop, and I can do the work myself. I could remake used parts, if needed. If anyone has any ideas, I would love to hear them.

[mike ford]

toadboy,
The job you want to take on is going to be very daunting, if you have never done it before, or at least seen it done. Some sources for parts are Bock(?) , Ernst Apel Wuerzburg(EAW), and Recknagel Feintechnik (ERA). I understand that NEW ENGLAND CUSTOM GUNS has or can aquire parts from both EAW and ERA. Except, maybe, for some more modern guns, these parts do not come in "sets", they have to be bought individually according to specific measurements. Used parts, available on the internet, are highly unlikely to fit anything, except the specific rifle, from which they came. The bottom sides would have been spotted and scraped to fit the specific location on the specific barrels, and the tops would have been milled level with the world (level with the barrel flats), removing them destroys these relationships. You say you have a good machine shop and can remake used parts. As a "hobby machinist" myself, it is my considered opinion that it would be easier for you to make them from scratch. This way you would know the dimensions which would need to be matched. After all, someone made the original ones, so someone else should be able to make a new set. I watched Eric Recknagel's shop making a run of front sights. He had several hand milling machines set up to make one cut for each machine, therefore skilled machinists were not needed, during a production run. In your case, you would have to setup the part for each cut. Setup time will be much longer than actual milling time( not at all unusual for "one off" work). After all this, you must have the fortitude to take a hacksaw and caping chisel to cut the rib on your "baby" , then take a torch and melt the joints loose. You can rest assured, however, that you can't do something that someone else can't repair; all it can take is money, time, and locating the right person.
Good luck
Mike

[toadboy65]

I tried contacting New England Custom Guns, but I never heard back from them. We have a retired tool and die maker who works with us, so I am not worried about the machine work. Most of the period correct mounts that I have seen look like they have cast decorative details, and I don't want to make something that stands out as new. Of course I am a little out of my element here, and no sort of expert on these guns. But I am learning. I just assumed that an easy route for the mounts would be ones that had been removed in favor of a newer design, even if a bit of work would be needed to bring them back to life.

[Leatherman]

Toad boy. Although the claw mount bases and rings look the same on Drillings they are each individually hand crafted and fitted to each gun. They were never mass produced or interchangeable like our scope mounts and rings today. They were also hand engraved with different designs never cast . I am always on the hunt for old bases and upper claw mounts that I have used to mount some scopes on a couple of my own guns. I have only attempted mounting one rear base on the rib of a double rifle that for some weird reason never had the rear base installed, only the front one. I used a verticle mill to mill out the rib and with some files and chisels cleaned it up to a tight fit to a base a friend gave me that was a new blank intended for a double gun. You see a lot of bases online and at gun shows but they are flat bottom and are intended to be mounted on a rifle like a Mauser and will not work on a double gun. Believe me you can search a life time and never find a used matching set of bases that will fit your drilling. If you are set in your mind to do this yourself buy a complete set of new bases and upper claw scope mounts from EAW and fit them to your gun and scope. Be prepared to give them all the measurements of your scope and what ever else they need. If your scope you have already has mounts soldered to it. The scope will need to be dismantled and the mounts removed with a torch. Then the scope will need to be refinished and rust blued after the new mounts are mounted. I use JB Weld epoxy instead of soldering. I even used it to attach that rear base on my double rifle. That way I didn't have to reblue my barrels when I was done. I then had an engraver match the engraving to the existing front base so it looks like it was original. You would need to do that too if you want it to look original. So are you still wanting to add that scope to your drilling? That is why I buy Drillings with at least some type of scope bases already mounted. I then make my own scope mounts usually for 1" vintage scopes like Weaver scopes. Not original but very inexpensive and very practical for hunting. Makes the gun more marketable when and if you ever sell it. I use old scope mounts I find at gun shows with out trade marks and drill a center hole down through the bottom ring and countersink it for a flat top Allen head screw. Then I mill the claw mounts and fit them to the existing bases. It is impossible to know what shape they need to be but if you can get ahold of a set from another gun you can get a good idea of how they need to be made. The half round needle file is what is needed to shape the front and rear claws once the legs are ruffed in close. Once the claws are fit to the bases I figure the height of the scope rings and the angle of the scope. you need check the level of the bases on the gun. Some are level with the bore and some are not. If not you have to mill the scope lower bases so the scope is level to the bore so you don't run out of adjustment. Then I drill and tap the claw base and attach the scope rings to the claws with the screw and locktite. A full weekend project believe me. Here is a picture of a couple of mounts I made.
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/z.../image_16.jpeg
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/z.../image_10.jpeg
I am experimenting with making scope mounts that are mounted to the rib and barrel of a double rifle or drilling with high strength rare earth magnets. I have had some success with a scope on a drilling and now am trying a small red dot sight on a double rifle. The recoil does move the scope and red dot but it goes back to zero when it is repositioned to the original position. Even when the mount it butted up to the rear sight, the recoil knocks it backward. Here is my double rifle with the red dot mounted behind the rear sight. Nice and small and this one has a 1 MOA dot which is the smallest dot made. Good for out to 100 yards.
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/z...s/image_4.jpeg

[mike ford]

toadboy65,leatherman,
I suggest you call up the ERA and/or EAW sites and go to the parts section in their catalogs. Here you can see the details of all the parts, before they have been fit up and filed to final shape/engraved. If you hold the blank parts in your hands, you can see how they are made, by "blowing up" the images you may also see how they are made. After watching the installation of many sets of clawmounts, I came to know there is much less machining and much more practical hand fitting/artistry than you would think.
Mike

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
I would be very careful about attaching scope mounts to the ribs of drillings. The weight of a scope, together with the recoil impulse may pull the rib loose, then you will have a mess on your hands. The short section of rib at the very rear of the barrels(you can usually see the joint)is attached by silversolder or brazing. The rest of the rib (and entire bottom ribs)is attached by soft solder, and the joints are very narrow. Also they are sometimes "undercut" somewhat in the "striking" process. The small red dot sight on the double is likely light enough to be attached to the rear part of the rib.
Mike

[Leatherman]

Mike, you missed the fact, I am not attaching the mount solid to anything. I am simply using very strong magnets epoxied in the base to hold the base and sight to the rib and barrels. Upon recoil the whole thing slides forward. There is very little stress put on the rib itself. I have mounted a scope to a 5" long brass base with two 1" X 3/16"X 3/8" rare earth magnets epoxied in the brass so they contact the top of the rib. The rest of the brass base which is 1 1/2" wide is milled and shaped to conform to the width and contour of the rib and barrels. The base is slid back against the edge of the receiver as a positive reference point or zero point. Upon firing the gun the whole thing slides forward and must be slid back for the next shot. Works great but I found that it is best to put a piece of paper between the magnets and the rib when epoxing everything together otherwise the magnets sliding on the rib scratches the bluing off. The brass or aluminium doesn't harm the blue. I also have used the epoxy as a bedding surface between the metal base and rib/ barrels and that also doesn't harm the finish. On cape guns or any drilling that has a solid rear sight the red dot or long eye relief scope can be butted up against the sight. In this case recoil causes the rear sight to push the base rearward. I wouldn't advise doing this on a drilling with a flip up sight as the rear sight may not hold up to that kind of stress. I also wouldn't advise useing a large heavy scope. I am liking these little red dot sights from JP Rifles .com, a British company. They offer them with a one MOA size dot which is the smallest I have found which works great on a rifle out to 100 yards. Other 3 MOA dots are just too large. The whole base and red dot sight as shown weighs only 6 ounces. This can be made to fit against the receiver as well. Just thought I would share this for guys who have Drillings with out scope bases or even with bases and no claw mounts as an alternative to having expensive mounts made and changing the originality of the gun in doing so.

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
If it works for you, that's great. You might try a screw ahead of the brass base to act a recoil lug, to stop the base from sliding. The screw would be in the part of the rib hard soldered to the barrels, with the head standing proud as the recoil lug. You could also likely mill dovetails in this part of the rib to attach the lightweight red dot sight to. Another lower(not low)cost alternative, would be "swing" mounts. The rib would still have to be cut, if it doesn't already have bases. EAW has a very interesting system to convert old claw mounts to "swing" mounts. Since the scope swings rather than "tips", the choice of scopes is not as critical.
Mike

[Leatherman]

No way would I put a screw in a rib of a perfectly good Drilling. The idea here is to add a better way of sighting a gun without alternating it in any way. I don't even care to have a pre war gun with a 1950's scope mounting system. I prefer period correct mounts or no scope at all. That's just my thing. I have thought of super glueing a small piece of steel lug in front and see how that would hold up. It could always be heated enough to be removed and cleaned up with acetone if someone wanted the gun back to original.

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
That is why there are different color cars and more than one happy woman in the world, "to each his own". In my view, the vast majority of drillings were made and intended to be used as fine hunting tools, rather than collector's items. Who would refuse to sharpen his hunting knife because it would hurt the collector value. Also post war scopes are much better than pre-war scopes, which is easy to see from a deer stand in low light conditions. With that said, it should be well known that in my opinion, whoever owns the drilling(or anything else) is the one that decides what happens to it, and shouldn't be criticized for it. If you want to use magnets or super glue, you are perfectly entitled to do so.
Mike