Cape gun queastion

[Leatherman]

Picked up this cape gun last week from a friend who had already got the brass worked out and had dies made and even worked up a load useing 5744 powder. As you can see the bullet is seated extremely deep in the brass so I thought perhaps the neck was too long. So I made my own chamber cast and did some measureing. The chamber cast shows a case length of 57mm but has no throat. It turns right into the rifling . Looking at his reload you can see the rifling imprinting on the bullet tip when the shell is chambered. My question is are there any of you have this experience on an old German cartridge and is this case length correct? Or is it better to shorten the case neck so the bullet can be seated deeper? Another thing I found with my chamber cast is that the bullet he is loading is .009" larger than the size of the casting. That concerns me as well. I will be talking to him to see how he came up with this bullet.
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[Leatherman]

Some more pictures.
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As you can see the 16 gauge barrel has straight rifling. I have had a few black powder muzzle loaders that had straight rifling in the shotgun barrel. It has been discussed on this forum before that it was in fashion for a while and probably for the powder residue problem with black powder.

[sharps4590]

Hey Leatherman...

I'll offer my thoughts. With the chamber cast showing a neck of .520 and the neck of the loaded case being .494 it seems to me the case neck is going to expand more than enough to release the .476 bullet. I'm rather inclined to agree with you that the bullet is a bit large for the groove diameter but I don't believe it will cause any difficulty. However, if it were me I believe I would do as you allude to and shorten the case accordingly so the bullet could be more correctly seated and either find and buy, make or have made a more closely fitting bullet sizing die. You didn't mention if you know what the case is or if you could even find it. It almost appears as if it is on the Mauser "A" base case. If such is the case there was several cartridges based on the original 11.15 X 60R case cut back to 47mm which, to my feeble mind, would make some sense, making the case 10mm shorter than the chamber cast and giving it a 10mm throat. If the case is known hopefully the proper dimensions could be found and cases corrected. Bear in mind the above is speculation on my part.

Not long ago I did have a similar experience where the original chamber cast showed what certainly appeared to me to be a neck. Turns out it wasn't. Just a really long throat. As the old rifle was not Nitro proofed and I have a love affair with black powder the cases I made to that length, loaded with black, did not create any problems but if I remember correctly I only fired one before shortening the cases.

Very attractive combination gun on a Lefaucheux action. Congrats on your acquisition!!. I have one retailed by Jost & Diehl that also has straight rifling in the shotgun bore. I knew of the straight rifling in shotgun bores but when mine arrived it was the first time I saw it.

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
I would advise not to have new dies, etc. made until you are absolutely sure they are required. It seems to me that someone did an awful lot of work in coming up with everything necessary to shoot the rifle. If it were my gun, I would hesitate to insult the work of an obviously knowledgeable former owner, unless there is some overriding reason to do so. Just this past week, I had occasion to re-measure a chambercast and bore slugs, at the request of the owner, who was obviously experienced. He was highly concerned that his measurements were much smaller than the bullets in still (or again) available commercial ammo. I was concerned that his measurements did not match my experience with the particular bore diameter proofmark on the gun( in gauge measurement). I discovered that the rifling in his gun is an old type "segmental" type rifling that is very difficult to measure, and false measurements often result. This type rifling was used in rifles intended for lead bullets, as is yours. I suggest you re-measure the chambercast, and this time, use an electronic digital caliper(or mic, which is more accurate, but harder to use). "Roll" the chambercast (rifling part only) while manipulating the caliper with the other hand. It is hard to explain, but you can feel the chambercast almost opening up the caliper (or mic), until it slips over a "high point". This point is close to the true groove diameter. I use the same procedure to measure slugs from barrels with an odd number of grooves, and it results in a pretty good approximation of the proper diameter. Also, the chamber in your rifle in a little unusual, but is not unknown. A friend of mine is currently working out loads for a double rifle with similar chambers. I believe, with no particular reason to do so, that such chambers were often used with paper patched bullets.
It would be interesting if you provider the head and rim diameters of the cartridge, and the name, if you know it. We might be able to find additional information. For blackpowder cartridges, we often find that original diameter bullets will not work well with smokeless or blackpowder substitute powders, so might not match bullet diameters we need to use.
Mike

[Leatherman]

Mike , again your experience is priceless. The guy dropped by this morning and we reviewed the chamber castings , both his and mine and found that I was not measuring the bore correctly. Once I rolled the cast in the calibers it was apparent that the bore was indeed a .476 ". Although the bullet mikes out at .474" I now am not worried about excessive pressure due to a too large of bullet. He said that when loading and using heavier bullets he had two issues right away. The heavier bullets did not stabilize and keyholed at 40 yards. He also had pressure issues( cases sticking and hard to extract) and wound up with the 325 grain bullet stabilizing and using 22 grains of 5744 powder. I looked up loads for the 45/70 government round which this cartridge resembles a lot and using 5744 powder and the loads using 325 grain lead bullets start at 26 grains and max at 32 grains. We talked about the case length and I pointed out that his fired brass had ripples on the length of the neck and the mouth edge was crimped inward. We agreed that it may be best that I shorten the length of the case as it is probably expanding and hitting the end of the chamber when firing . We think that that might also be causing some extra pressures and or his extracting problems. I have a Marlin Guide gun chambered in Wild West guns .457 alaskan which is just a 45/70 lengthened 3/16". You can shoot 45/70 in it as well and they shoot just as fine as if the gun was made for them. The same goes for this gun and the length can be shortened and won't effect anything. The donor brass is the 11.15 X 58 Wernol which is very similar except the shoulder is about 3/16" farther forward. We have not been able to find this cartridge in any of my friends extensive books of cartridges but perhaps some one has a reference to this cartridge. The dimensions of the reload is as follows. Base measures .540" and the shoulder is 1.245" forward from the rim base. The neck measures .494"(12.55mm) and we are using the .476"(12.10mm) bullet actually .474" after lube and sizing. OAL on the case is anyones guess but the chamber casting is a little over 58 mm or 2.290". I hope this post helps educate a few more people like me on figuring out these old defunct cartridges. I want to try this gun in black powder also and compare velocities.

[Diz]

Leatherman,

Do you have all the measurements from the chamber and the reformed case or better yet from a fired case? Also did you slug the bore? I am having a hard time trying to find something with a bullet that size. Also I would be careful with 5744 in my experience pressure builds very fast as you add powder and velocity only moves in very small increments. Deep seating reduces case volume and increases pressure as does seating the bullet against the rifling. A drawing with a full set of dimensions from a fired case would be very helpful.

What do the barrel markings look like?

Thanks, Diz

[Leatherman]

Diz,
We couldnt find anything with that bullet size either. Refer to my first post and there is a picture of the chamber casting and a reload beside it. The Dimensions of the chamber casting are - Base is .538" straight up to the shoulder which is 1.245" from the rim base. Very slight shoulder down to .514" and straight all the way to the mouth. total chamber length to the rifling is 58mm with no throat. Bore slugged out to .476" or 12.10mm. This is a strange one. I plan only to trim the case back 3/16" which will allow me to seat the bullet 1/16" deeper and take the end of the case to the crimp groove of the bullet I am using so i will only be seating this 325 Grain bullet 1/16" farther into the case. This will create a sort of throat space for the case to grow when firing and allow some space between the bullet and the rifling as you mention. This bullet has very little taper to it and if you look at the reload you can see how it is seated way past the normal depth and it still engages the rifling. A heavier bullet would be filling the case volume even farther but it has been proven that this barrel twist does not like heavy bullets. To my calculations trimming the case back 3/16" will bring it to the length of a 45/70 and the case volume is pretty much the same. That is what my friend figured as a starting load when he loaded the rifle for the first time but he didn't notice the necks being rippled and the mouth edges crimped after firing. I pointed that out to him and we hope by shortening the case that that will eliminate the extraction problem and rippled case necks. I am hoping that there wasn't a pressure issue and instead it was the rippled necks that caused the extraction issues. you can see scratches on the brass along the neck. I would think I should be able to get 1400 fps using this bullet and 5744 and that would be fine for me. The 45/70 gets this using a 330 grn cast bullet with a starting load of 29 grains of 5744 according to the Lyman reloading book. I am going to trim a couple cases and start at his 22 grains of 5744 and work up accordingly. It will be a couple of weeks as I have to buy a forster case trimmer and collets to trim these fat rimmed cases. I was going to get one any way to use for my 450 and 500BPE rifles so just more reason to do it.

[Diz]

Leatherman,

What are the base dimensions of your chamber cast and the rim diameter from the rifle? There are a couple of possibilities out there but the bullet is still a bit of a puzzle.

Thanks, Diz

[sharps4590]

...which is what makes this stuff so much fun....

[mike ford]

I too have searched my sources to no avail. The problem is we really don't know the bullet diameter and case length of a factory cartridge. The Catch 22 is, without a factory cartridge we can't find the name, and without the name, we can't find the cartridge. With the very early black powder cartridge rifles, the bullet in nominal caliber factory cartridges followed the thinking of muzzle loading rifles, rather than the way we now understand is best. Accordingly, the factory bullet would have been smaller than the groove diameter, and smaller, even, than the bore diameter. The bullet may have been paperpatched, and if so, we don't know whether patch was included in the diameter that set the nominal caliber in the name. Also, we know the chamber is long enough for a 57mm case, but we don't know how long the factory case actually was. If I was forced to guess, I would say that instead of 12.1mm, the nominal caliber would have been listed as 11.5-11.8mm and the case from 52-55mm. If the base case is 11.15x58 Werndel, I would expect an Austrian name. Early chambers were generous in diameter, so it is not impossible for the base case to have been the Mauser base case. I often say that if you can find or make bullets and workable cases, you can name the cartridge anything you want to name it. Before 1893, they didn't have to be proofed, but some were marked so as to give hints at the cartridge. It would be interesting to see photos of the barrels, w/o forearm, to see if there is a hint as to bullet weight or powder charge. The twist rate requiring a "light" bullet is also such a hint and is also often seen in early rifles. If you load it to "follow the sights", that should be near the factory velocity, as long as your bullet weight is near the factory weight. I would guess this to be between 1250 and 1450 fps. As always, I might be completely wrong about all this.
Mike

[Diz]

Leatherman,

Mike makes a lot of very good points and basically it doesn't really matter as long as it works. But I always like to dig a little deeper to see if the real cartridge can be discovered. I thought the 11.15 x 58 Werndl was a good possibility except for the bullet. I also thought that the 11.5 x 50R Werder Schuetzen may be better as it is about the (guessing) right length for the chamber but some of the other dimensions are not available in your drawing or text. There are a couple of others with a bullet diameter that could work but differ in other ways. There are only so many cartridges out there and it has to be one of them.

Thanks, Diz

[Leatherman]

I will make another diagram to show what I have in best detail. As Mike has said we don't know what bullet size or weight this rifle was ment to shoot or if it was paper patched or under sized and we don't know the true length of the cartridge with the absence of a throat. All I can do is try the modern means of sizeing the bullet to the bore and hope it gives good enough accuracy which I think it will.

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
From what I read above, other than trimming the cases a significant amount, it seems that you have already worked out the loads that will allow you to use and enjoy your gun. "Drive ON".

Diz,
I,too, suspected rifle was chambered for 11.5X 50R, old chambers were very "Generous" and it is very hard to know what was intended, only from chamber/barrej dimensions.
Mike

[Leatherman]

OK Diz, here is a diagram of what I got with measurements .
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/z.../image_18.jpeg

[mike ford]

I previously thought either the Werndel or Mauser base case was the basis for this cartridge. Based on the new measurements, I no longer think the Mauser base case might be "in play".
Mikr