HUBERTUS by Imman Meffert

[MARAT]

Mike,
The diameter bullet from cartridge has 11,17 mm
the diameter bullet from bullet mold is 11,56 mm.
Tomorrow, i'll give you exact sizes.

[Axel E]

Mike Ford already answered most of your questions, so here are just some add-ins:
When it was made?
As Mike wrote, from 1893 to 1912. As it is for one of the countless lead bullet, black powder cartridge, most likely in the first years of that time span. About 1895 is as close as I dare to say. The scope claw mount bases were certainly added later.
Is it possible to know who was first owner?
No. That fancy monogram and the compass were likely put on later, in Russia? It does not look like German at all.
What is caliber and cartridge of rifle barrels?
Please, post a photo of the cartridges and their measurements, as Mike asked for. The CARTRIDGES only, please. The "NGP M71" mentioned by Mike was black powder.
later, i'll do bullet from plumbum = Blei (German) = lead (English).
Post the diameter and weight too. The bullet mould appears to be for a hollow pointed bullet. The cores for forming the hollow point may be missing, but are easy to make.
Do you have any ideas - for what is inner pocket of this cartridge belt?
Other than the German leater box for rifle cartridges, that belt is certainly not German. It rather looks like Russian/Soviet military equipment to me, but may be civilian. No idea what the inner pocket is for.

[Axel E]

Again, overlapping posts. The cartridge you show is a German M71 Mauser military cartridge, made by Spandau arsenal. In civilian use the cartridge is known as 11.15 x60R, in America as the .43 Mauser. It was a popular hunting cartridge too until the 1890s. Last listed in the 1934 DWM catalog, obsolete sine the mid 1930s. It was always loaded with 5 gramm = 77 grains black powder and a 25 g = 386gr lead bullet. Never factory loaded with smokeless powder or jacketed bullets. Mike ford once wrote an article for the GGCA "Waidmannsheil" about making cases and loading for this cartridge.

[MARAT]

Thank you, Axel for your answer.
Compass and cartridge belt does not look like Soviet or Russian. neither of my friends didn't see the same cartridges belt.

[MARAT]

Thank you, Axel for your answer.
Compass and cartridge belt does not look like Soviet or Russian. neither of my friends didn't see the same cartridges belt.

[Axel E]

The cartridge belt may not be Russian, but it certainly is not German. The black ink stamp shown in one of your photos may be a Japanese charakter? During WW1, before the 1917 revolution, Russia got more than 500 000 Arisaka Type 30 rifles and other equipment from the Japanese Empire.
The compass is not German either. IMHO the gun was exported to Russia when new, way before WW1 and the October revolution.

[mike ford]

MARAT,
Now this is a little bit confusing. The bullet diameter from the cartridge is consistent with what I would expect for a factory bullet intended for use in the 11.15x60R, AKA 11mm Mauser,AKA 43 Mauser. The diameter of the bullet from the bullet mold is pretty close to the groove diameter I found in Mod 71 Rifles and the diameter bullet I use in my own Mod 71(considering cast bullets are usually sized). This, taken together with Axel's ID of the cartridges headstamp as being from a military 11mm Mauser cartridge; I would otherwise say the rifle is chambered for 11.15x60R. The confusing part is the 67/49 ga.bore diameter proof mark. While I haven't had experience with civilian rifles in this caliber, the Mod 71, Mod 71-84s were marked with bore diameters of 10.9, 10.95, or 11mm.This would equate to a civilian mark of 58/50, instead. The 67/49 is usually(but not always)associated with some nominal 10.75mm cartridge. If it is 11.15x60R, this is in my opinion lucky, since it is a very good and well known cartridge. Of course, my opinion is partially based on components being pretty available in the US; I'm not at all familiar with their availability in Russia. Of course this may or may not change when you give exact sizes.
Mike

[sharps4590]

If you cast bullets from the bullet mold wrap the handles in several layers of leather or you won't hold on to it very long.

[Diz]

Sharps is quite right about wrapping that mold. They will get very hot. Also be very careful about cleaning it avoid scratching any of the mold or mating surfaces if possible. I have used paste type rust removers with some luck. Very interesting Good luck with it. Diz

[MARAT]

DSC_1014.jpgDSC_1015.jpgDSC_1016.jpgDSC_1017.jpgDSC_1018.jpg

[MARAT]

DSC_1020.jpgDear friends!
Today, I did new bullet with bullet mold, and you can see results. Also I did moulding at the end of the barrel . I have next results
Diameter of bullet is 11,5 mm
Diameter of bullet in groove is 10,5 mm .
Size of grooves is 10,4-10,5 mm
Size of "fields" is 10,8-11,0 mm.
The weight of bullet is 20,7 gramm.
The length of shell is 60 mm

[MARAT]

Also one thing, the bullet mold and the cover of spare cartridges in the stock have the same serial number. So, think that the bullet mold is original .

[Axel E]

Mike, as we discussed in another thread, the German military M71 and M71-84 rifles relied on the slugging up of an undersized lead bullet from th push of black powder. As this did not work with any smokeless load, the German factories never offered a "nitro for black" 11.15x60R load. But this Meffert double rifle was made at least ten years later. The bore diameter may have been as large as 10.66 mm = .4197". To this you have to add the depth and width of the grooves. As I wrote several times before, nothing was standardized then when it comes to rifling design and dimensions. Meffert then apparently preferred a press fit of a greased lead bullet in a slightly undersized barrel, just as many lead bullet shooters do today. As I wrote before many times: Until the 1920s no dimensions were "standard" with civilian rifles. As long as the gun stood the proof load, anything was deemed ok.

[mike ford]

MARAT,
As mentioned above, there are certain things that do not match what I would have expected in a rifle chambered for 11.15x60 R. There are a couple other similar cartridges that should be considered, 10.25x60R and 11.5x60R. All three of these cartridges use the same case, with different bullets. Cartridges and rifles made during the later 19th and early 20th century often have dimensions that seem to not match each other. Because of using the combination of blackpowder and soft lead bullets, these mismatches worked in a satisfactory manner. I am not criticizing the research you have done, but if you used lead for the "slug" at the "end of the barrel", it would shrink considerably upon cooling( the bullet would too, but that would be accounted for in making the mold). All this taken together, including the popularity of the cartridge for hunting, in my opinion the rifle is chambered for 11.15x60R; not a nominal 10.75mm cartridge as I thought at first; and not the 10.25x60R, or 11.5x60R, as also considered. I agree with Diz that you should very, very carefully clean the mold prior to use. It is not necessary that I agree with Sharps 4590 about protecting the handles; you will very quickly come to the same conclusion, on your own. To get better quality bullets, fully filled out, it may be necessary to add a little tin to the lead, and it will be necessary to make sure the molten metal and the mold are hot enough to prevent cooling before the mold is completely filled. If you intend to load for this rifle, we will help, the best we can. I would be curious to know if the others agree with me, or if I'm entirely wrong.
Mike

[mike ford]

Axel,
It seems that once again, we were writing at the same time. Am I correct to believe we both agree that the rifle is chambered for 11.15x60R?
Mike