History question - 10.75x57

[mart]

I just acquired a Gustave Genschow 10.75x57 and am curious about the history of the round. I know Genschow was a distributor rather than a builder but am trying to nail down some specifics on the cartridge. Cartridges of the World notes that it may have been developed by Mauser or Mannlicher. I'm leaning toward Mauser due to the fact that all the information I've seen on Mannlicher doesn't reflect them offering it as a chambering. I've only ever seen one Mannlicher so chambered and have seen many Mausers in 10.75x57. Is it possible it was developed to meet the needs of those settling Africa? I've read somewhere that at one time the Swiss required hunting rifles to be over 40 caliber. Could it have been to meet that need? It's an interesting and mysterious round and I'll have fun getting it up and shooting and unraveling some of its mystery. Thanks in advance for any information.

Mart

[Steve Whitley]

Can't help you with the cartridge, although others here will have information for you. As a matter of stemming some misinformation on Genschow, however, the company DID indeed manufacture barrels and SOME small bore rifles themselves at a Spandau facility (purchased in 1924). Headquartered in Berlin-Treptow, the firm manufactured shot and ammunition in Durlach in Baden.
Steve

[mart]

I did not realize Genschow made any firearms or parts of them. Good to know. Thank you. I did find out today the Mannlicher did develop the round. Don't know why they didn't offer it in their rifles. At least to best of my research I can't find where they ever offered it. I've seen a fair number of Mauser so chambered.

[mike ford]

Mart,
I wouldn't be so positive that the 10.75x57 was developed by Mannlicher. There are pretty good reasons to think so, but there are also good reasons to think otherwise. The cartridge was based on the M88 case, which was not developed by either Mauser or Mannlicher, but rather by "commission". This case(with 11.95mm head dia,) is usually called Mauser anyway. The one usually called Mannlicher has a head diameter of 11.85mm. The "Mauser" series is nominally 57mm long, whereas the Mannlicher is 56mm.However the Austrians often left the thickness of the rim off of the case length designation. Because the head diameters are so similar and tolerances overlap, together with difference in the way the case length is designated; sometimes the "Mauser" cartridges chamber in "Mannlicher" rifles and vice versa. This is especially true of the 8mm and 9mm cartridges, but the 6.5x54 MS and 6.5x54 Mauser are drastically different cases. This is all confusing enough, but when you bring Haenel into the discussion, it becomes even more so. Before the "Great War", Haenel had to base their rifles on the M88 Commission rifle action or their various improvements to it( Mauser defended it's patents aggressively). This is often called the M88 Mauser, but is more Mannlicher in derivation, which adds further to the confusion. Cartridges weren't usually developed by a rifle manufacturer, but rather by an ammunition company by request from a rifle manufacturer. In these discussions, it sometimes seems that only DWM developed cartridges in Germany or Roth in Austria. There were other ammunition manufacturers, so the argument that either the DWM case or Roth case preceded the other may very well leave out the actual developer of a cartridge. All this taken together makes it highly questionable that the 10.75x57 is a Mannlicher development. I expect someone will offer a counter argument.
Mike

[Axel E]

I have often read the 10.75x57 being a Steyr development for Mannlicher – Schoenauer rifles. It was certainly not developed by Ferdinand v. Mannlicher as he passed away january 1904. Especially American authors repeat the "Mannlicher" origin, but I doubt it. The few ultra rare Mannlicher – Schoenauer rifles in 10.75x57 I know about are clearly marked "Modell 1912" on the receiver rings, indicating adoption by the Steyr factory that year. But the 1910 Burgsmueller, Kreiensen, mail order/retail catalog already offers cartridge and chambering in Suhl style sporters on M88 Commission and M98 Mauser actions.Mauser, Oberndorf, themselves never offered commercial sporters in 10.75x57. Instead, they had their 10.75x68 normalized in 1909, see "Waidmannsheil!" #56, page 19. My 10.75x63 Mauser by Kaltzki, Vienna, was proofed in 1907, so that Austrian cartridge also predates the x57. 10.75x57 cartridges were made pre-WW1 by RWS, Gecado, Geco and Roth, but not DWM. Remember, Mauser was a DWM subsidiary. So by 1910 three 10.75 cartridges existed. All three used the same 347 gr bullets. According to a 1920s Steigleder catalog the 10.75x57 gave a mv of 2034 fps, the 10.75x63 at 2133 fps and the 10.75x68 at 2200 fps.
So I believe the 10.75x57 was developed neither by Mauser nor Mannlicher, but in Suhl, just like the 6.5x57, the "Suhler 6.5 mm", perhaps first made by Dornheim = Gecado. But why, when at least the 10.75x63 already existed? Before WW1 Suhl still produced many hunting rifles on M88 Commission actions. These clip magazines of these actions would work properly only with cartridges having the "standard" .470" base diameter of the 8x57. Both the 10.75x63 and x68 with their .495" base could not be used in M88 actions without a complete redesign. Neither could these cartridges with their identical over all length of 3.2" be fitted into the short magazines of pre-1924 Mannlicher –Schoenauer actions. So the Suhl gunmakers needed another 10.75 mm cartridge that would fit into a M88 action. Some years later Steyr tentatively adapted their Mannlicher –Schoenauer to use this Suhl cartridge, but very few such rifles were ever made.
I doubt the designers of the various 10.75 cartridges, the three rimless ones and the rimmed Gruendig series, had Africa in mind at the first place. At those times jacketed bullet design was not very developed. Many hunters of big game missed the large entrance holes of the bigger black powder cartridges. The new fangled "pencil bullet" cartridges of 6.5 to 8 mm were mistrusted by many for use on really big game. Scopes were still to become common. So stretched string trajectory was rarely needed in the dense forests of the European east and north, but producing an ample blood trail was. The Habsburg empire encompassed many of the wildest hunting grounds of Europe and the Russian empire was wide open for affluent hunters. Contemporary catalogs advertized the 10.75 cartridges for "large red deer, moose, bears, big boars, lions, tigers and thick skinned game" in this order. All of the 10.75x57 rifles I know about came out of Scandinavia, Sweden, Norway and Finland. Apparently they were quite popular there for moose hunting.

[Axel E]

but when you bring Haenel into the discussion, it becomes even more so. Before the "Great War", Haenel had to base their rifles on the M88 Commission rifle action or their various improvements to it( Mauser defended it's patents aggressively). This is often called the M88 Mauser, but is more Mannlicher in derivation, which adds further to the confusion. Cartridges weren't usually developed by a rifle manufacturer, but rather by an ammunition company by request from a rifle manufacturer.

Mike, the M88 commission action was not based on a Mannlicher turnbolt design, but the other way around. First came the M88 action. As the name implies, it was developed by the German rifle testing commission by mixing features of the most desirable designs then known. The receiver and the bolt bolt with the detachable bolthead and two forward locking lugs was designed by head armorer Louis Schlegelmilch of Spandau arsenal. This turnbolt action was combined by the testing commission with Rubin's rimless case, Mieg's barrel jacket and Mannlicher's packet loading magazine. Mannlicher at those times concentrated on straight pull actions and just started to think about selfloaders. Of course Mannlicher and his Austrian Waffenfabrik Steyr protested against the use of patented features of their magazine. But this quarrel was soon settled: As lots of the new military rifles were needed by the German armies, the capacity of the government factories Spandau, Erfurt, Danzig and Amberg was insufficient anyhow. So the private factories of Ludwig Loewe, Berlin = DWM later, V.C.Schilling and C.G.Haenel, Suhl got additional large orders. The Austrian Steyr factory also got an order for 300000 M88 rifles. They were also allowed to use Schlegelmilch's turnbolt action themselves. Steyr subsequently used the basic Schlegelmilch bolt and Mannlicher's clip loading magazine on their M92 Roumanian, M93 Roumanian and M95 Dutch export military rifles. Even later, 1900, Steyr combined Schlegelmilch's bolt with their own rotary magazine by Otto Schoenauer and created the "Mannlicher – Schoenauer" action. As you see, Mannlicher designed minor features at best of the most famous action having his name.

[mike ford]

Axel,
Thanks. Was there another 10.75? Yesterday a friend brought by a Karl Stiegle(?) double rifle, post 1912, chambered for 10.75x60R. He had bought it as a Grundig, but the head diameter was less than the Grundig( it was .483-.485",in the chamber, rather than .495", cartridge). Also the groove diameter was .432-433", instead of .423-424", as expected. Also it was marked for a 17gram St,m.g, which is lighter than the 347gr of the others. The chamber was one of those that didn't seem to have a leade with the rifling starting at the end of the case. He left with some 9.3x74R cases to try ( he asked about .444, but that is simi-rimmed. I offered 7x65R, but he took the 9.3). I would lean toward 7.62x54R Nagant and consider the extra 6mm as leade, but he didn't want to do that, and it wasn't my rifle. From this, can you tell which cartridge it is chambered for?
Mike

[mart]

That's some great information guys. Thank you. I got the Mannlicher information from a gentleman who said the Ammo Encyclopedia credited Mannlicher with the creation of the 10.75x57. It sounds like that may not be the case. I am pretty well versed in the history of American cartridges but am obviously sadly lacking in the history of European cartridges. Lots of fascinating history. Thanks again.

Mart

[Axel E]

Mike, we deviate from the subject of this thread. That Stiegele double rifle is already discussed at length here:
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showf...0&fpart=2&vc=1
I don't know and could not find a German cartridge with your dimenssions. All the 10.75 cartidges I know are the rimless x57, x63, x68, x73 aka .404 and the rimmed Gruendig series.
As I can not verify the measurements myself, I still believe it to be a 10.75x60R Gruendig, maybe chambered for a specific pre-normalisation case make. Again, reread my article in "Waidmannsheil # 56". The 17 gramm sevice load may have been a proprietary Stiegele load. An old RWS bullet list shows 18 gramm, steel jacketed 10.75 bullets too. RWS stopped making special, proprietary loads in 1934 only. At the same time they stopped making Gruendig cases for good. Certainly I could fabricat loads for this rifle too, as I did for Hendrik's Sauer & Sohn dr in 10.75x45R. But that pond called Atlantic is sort of an obstacle.

[mike ford]

Axel,
He did tell me that it was discussed on nitroexpress, before he had it "in hand" and was able to take measurements. I didn't verify all his measurements, since he is trained and competent in doing this. I did quickly check the chamber diameter at the head with a "small hole" gauge,
and it was so much smaller that it could not be one the Grundig. I also couldn't find such a cartridge, but you have better references than I, and I thought you might find it. You are correct that this is a little "off topic", but I strayed over to it, when you mentioned the other 10.75s and I thought you might solve the question. The Atlantic is an obstacle, in more ways than just distance.
Mike

[Diz]

Mike,

Here is a drawing from [I]Custom Cartridgesby Ken Howell:

1075x60R.jpg

Thanks, Diz

[mike ford]

Diz,
That case is for the Grundig. The head dia. of .491" would be a very tight fit in the .483" chamber. Thanks anyway. Also the groove dia is over .430".
Mike

[Dan Patch]

Schlegelmilch's bolt for the 1888 rifle could be thought of as a 71 Mauser bolt with a pair of locking lugs on the front of the bolt body and an ejector added to the bolt head.

[Axel E]

Schlegelmilch's bolt for the 1888 rifle could be thought of as a 71 Mauser bolt with a pair of locking lugs on the front of the bolt body and an ejector added to the bolt head.

That's exactly what it is. Noone ever invented a gun entirely from scratch. It was always an evolutionary process.

[Diz]

Right Mike, the Grundig is the one Axel was talking about. Thanks, Diz