Walking 1903 Mannlicher/Schoenauer

[sharps4590]

I don't want to hijack the other thread anymore than I already have so here's a new one. My little 1903 M/S has walked up and left ever since I bought it. First shot will be in the 10 or X ring if I do my part. Following shots will walk. Here's a target I shot with it yesterday after checking the front sling stud as Mike suggested. There had been a little contact of metal to wood and I feel confident I relieved all that. The target was at 60 yards and I fired from my bench but without bags and rest. I just leaned against the bench and held the rifle. Anyway, the first shot from the M/S has been obliterated by the 450/400 bullet holes but it was in the 10 ring just to the left of the 10. The next two shots are in the 6 ring at about 11 O'clock, touching. I'm convinced the rifle wants to shoot. The rifle wears open sights, no scope but bases are present.



I believe I mentioned in the other thread that I had glass bedded the recoil lug and from the magazine well up to the front end of the receiver as the wood there was a bit soft, I assume from oil over the 86 year life of the rifle, and had also been a bit wollered out. When I had the action and barrel out of the stock yesterday I noticed a few other areas where the barrel had been in contact with the stock and relieved them. I'm almost positive the walking is coming from the barrel heating and contacting something in the stock, or perhaps still the front sling loop barrel stud....but am sort of at a loss where to look.

This sweet little M/S is my first experience with a more or less modern, full stock, smokeless powder, centerfire rifle. Lots of full stock Longrifles, 22's, keyed barrel Hawkens and two keyed barrel CF rifles are either in the toy box or have passed through my hands. I've always been fairly confident in my ability to make a rifle shoot but this one has me more than a little befuddled. Suggestions, critiques, "do this, stupid" or other comments gratefully accepted.

[Diz]

Sharps,

That's an interesting situation because the second and third shots are touching and almost look like one hole. I am wondering if the rifle will continue to put them in that group or does it walk out further as it warms up? Something is obviously happening after the first shot and it moves a good deal to change the impact by that much at 60 yards. I would pull the key and try it to see what happens. I was going to say get drunk and soak your head but that's another thread. Just a thought.

Thanks, Diz

[mike ford]

Vic,
As you know, no one else can tell you what to do, for sure. The best we can do is make some suggestions that have worked for us, in the past. We don't likely have more experience, it just may be different experience. I had expected a warming barrel would be pulled down by the stock, if there was interference at the sling attachment. It seems something else is happening though. It is hard to make suggestions, without having the rifle and trying it our selves. Does the rifle have a metal fore end cap? If so, does the small screw that holds it touch the barrel? screw into the barrel? Does the cap, itself touch the barrel, as it heats? Have you shot it at 100 yds or meters? If so, is the first shot low and the others centered? Also, what is the effect of firing the second shot immediately after the first, before the barrel has time to expand. What is the effect of allowing the barrel to cool to ambient temperature for follow on shots? In the end, you may just decide to kill the deer with one shot, and one very quick follow up.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Mike..

The rifle does have the metal end cap and the screw does not screw into the barrel nor does it touch it. There is a threaded, metal square that is inlet into the wood and the screw threads into that. The nose cap does contact the barrel but I don't see how it can be relieved without compromising the rifle. I have shot it at 100 yards and while I don't recall exactly the results I believe the first shot was slightly low and subsequent shots walked up and left. That, the up and left, is as consistent as the first shot being centered. I haven't done a rapid fire test such as you suggest. If the barrel is allowed to cool to ambient temp the shot is centered.

Diz, subsequent shot do shoot into that group. There is no key to pull unless you're referring to the sling loop bolt, which is an idea. It's a bit frustrating as it certainly appears the rifle will shoot....if I can find the gremlin that's causing it to walk so much. Arrgghhh....but then I suppose that's why we do what we do, eh?

[sharps4590]

Mike..

The rifle does have the metal end cap and the screw does not screw into the barrel nor does it touch it. There is a threaded, metal square that is inlet into the wood and the screw threads into that. The nose cap does contact the barrel but I don't see how it can be relieved without compromising the rifle. I have shot it at 100 yards and while I don't recall exactly the results I believe the first shot was slightly low and subsequent shots walked up and left. That, the up and left, is as consistent as the first shot being centered. I haven't done a rapid fire test such as you suggest. If the barrel is allowed to cool to ambient temp the shot is centered.

Diz, subsequent shot do shoot into that group. There is no key to pull unless you're referring to the sling loop bolt, which is an idea. It's a bit frustrating as it certainly appears the rifle will shoot....if I can find the gremlin that's causing it to walk so much. Arrgghhh....but then I suppose that's why we do what we do, eh?

[mike ford]

Vic,
No worry, if you can't find the gremlin, you could rid yourself of the problem by giving the rifle to a friend. I know someone that has room in the vault.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Eureka!!! Diz, your suggestion of removing the key, in this case the screw that holds on the front sling loop, was the trick! I took out the screw and just now fired 3 rounds at the same 60 yards, benched and bagged, and you could cover them with a dime! Now that I know what's causing it I need to figure out what to do about it.

[Axel E]

Now that I know what's causing it I need to figure out what to do about it.

Simple. Take the barreled Action out of the stock. Look at the hole in the barrel band for the screw of the sling swivel. This hole ought to be bigger than the screw diameter. Look for signs of the screw rubbing on the inside of the hole. I guess from your problem it's at the top rear of the hole. Take a round needle file and slightly enlarge the hole in that area.

[sharps4590]

Once more I overlook the obvious. Ever feel as if you should have egg on your face? Thank you Axel

[Diz]

Sharps,

I believe Axel is correct but I may be inclined to give the screw some clearance all around if possible. On firing the barrel oscillates in several directions and I find that giving anything that is attached to it room to move is best. Even to the point of leaving the screw slightly loose and locking it in place with locktite. I would really like to see a photo of the area in question as I may be thinking wrongly about the situation. I am glad you pinpointed the problem.

Thanks, Diz

[sharps4590]

I agree with you. I didn't take the time to pull it down yesterday, that's one of the projects for today. I'll take photo's as I go.

[sharps4590]

It's fixed!! I pulled the rifle down earlier this morning and found the screw for the sling stirrup probably had enough relief but to appease my feeble mind I opened it up another 1/64th. I believe the real gremlin was that the sling screw lug was still rubbing on the bottom of its mortise. I relieved that being careful because I knew the wood was thin there. There was also some evidence that the back of the sling lug was rubbing on the back of the mortise. My photography skills being what they are the pictures aren't that good. Those familiar with the M/S carbines will recognize the lug mortise. Another friend wanted to see the bedding I did so there's a picture of it.

Acra Glass bedding. Evidently the hole didn't fill out perfectly...but it's a heck of a lot better than it was!!!



Pictures of before and after the sling lug mortise was relieved.





And lastly the results. On a sunny day, such as today, and this time of day it shines from the right side of my bench. I always know the group will be pulled left and it didn't let me down. Also makes it a bitt difficult to hold elevation. 50 yards, benched and bagged, open sights. No walking!!!! I believe I have killed the little gremlin!

[Diz]

Sharps, thanks for posting the pictures now I can see how it fits together. Looks like it will shoot now. So what's the next project? Diz

[mike ford]

Vic,
Good, see , if one thing doesn't work, try another.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Don't know Diz. The Scheutzen should be here next week so probably play with it a little with existing loads and see where it is. Then there's a 500 BPE, Reilly that needs paper patch tried in it. There's one or two more back there that I'd like to fine tune a bit.

That's exactly right Mike....as long as someone is kind enough to tell me what to try...lol!