Cigarette Rifle?

[Hook]

Well, I should have added two words: " no more new small ring 98 actions were made IN GERMANY".

Nope, totally unnecessary Axel. After all, this is the GERMAN rifle forum. I'm the one at fault for bringing up the non-German models.

But, after all these revelations (at least for me they are revelations), I guess it is not at all unusual for you to run across the M98 small ring actions over there is Germany, right?

I have to admit that I have a fondness for the Mauser actions in all their forms. However, the small ring versions are just extra special to me for whatever reason.

[Axel E]

I guess it is not at all unusual for you to run across the M98 small ring actions over there is Germany, right?

Right, in a way. Pre-war sporting rifles are not very often found here, due to 1945 and the "liberation" by the allies. But if you see such 98 bolt action rifles from the interwar years that were put together by smaller gunmakers, up to 25% are on these small ring actions.

[mike ford]

Axel,
The G33-40 are really small ring, they just look like large ring because the sidewalls are much thinner than normal, leaving the ring larger in diameter than the sidewall. A large wall ring is about 1.410" in dia, whereas the G33-40 is about 1.300" like the other small rings( in fact, I've seen them 1.295", with no evidence of grinding). It is easy to see how you could mistake one for a large ring.
Mike

[Hook]

In Europe, do reloaders treat the large ring and small ring M98s any differently with respect to pressure levels? Here in the States, 7X57 and 8X57 factory ammo is loaded to lower pressure levels because of the older Mauser actions.....well, actually it is more because of the lawyers. The public here is not considered to be capable of understanding the difference in action strengths and using proper ammo for them. Of course, many aren't but sometimes I think survival of the fittest should be factored into the equation.

At any rate, I'm sure the German army did not supply different ammunition for the two types of actions during WWI, so I assume they both used common ammo. The same would apply to a lesser degree for WWII. I have heard that wartime WWII 8X57 was loaded pretty hot and that postwar surplus from some countries is also very hot. Do users of the small ring M98s consider the action to be up to the same pressure ammo as the large rings?

[Axel E]

The small ring carbine Kar98AZ was developed to use the new standard cartridge of the infantry rifle, the 8x57IS, as the short carbines on large ring actions would have needed special ammo, the old M88 load. The German proofhouses proofed the small ring actions for the same European CIP max pressures as the large ring actions. I have seen rifles on these actions used with 6.5x57, 7x57, 7x64, 8x57IS and 9.3x62, even a 5.6x61 Super Express vom Hofe, and post-war .30-06 and .308 Win. The 7x57 and 8x57IS rifles are proofed for the CIP max service pressures, 57k psi instead of 51k for the 7x57, and 57k for the 8x57IS instead of the 35k of the castrated SAAMI 8mm Mauser. Of course, if you try to handload the 8x57IS to the performance of a 8x68, you are on your own, regardless of action type. Building a Magnum cartridge rifle on a small ring action is nonsense, not because of action strength, but because you don't waste a slim, light action that’s better spared for a slim, light rifle.

[Hook]

Thanks, Axel....nice to hear that verified. I have read comments on the net that recommended holding pressures low for the small rings, even the M98 variety. I've always thought people were unnecessarily lumping the M98s in with the weaker pre-98s. I have never loaded anything I own hot, at least not intentionally. I've also never wanted or had a need for magnums. For my purposes, the standard cartridges work well enough. As I stated in the 9X57 thread, my initial loads are only 9X56 M-S pressures, but they shoot so well I may never try to increase the pressures to 9X57 Mauser levels.

[Hook]

I trust that this question is not out of place, but I think some of you are reloaders and can give me some input on a problem I have uncovered. My 'cigarette rifle' has never been overly accurate, usually turning in 2"-3" groups. I didn't let that bother me much and just planned to hunt with it in places where shots would be under 200 yds.

My latest range session with it resulted in even worse groups, so I decided to check the rifle a little closer to see if I could find a way to tighten it up. When I checked the leade in the barrel throat, I was blown away. The 200 gr Speers I normally load for this rifle were seated to an OAL of 3.04". It turns out that this depth placed the bullet about 0.6" off the lands! There is obviously no way I could achieve an OAL that would seat them just off the lands, so I tried a few seated only 0.2" deep. Although this still leaves a 0.4" 'freebore', six shots went into 1.4".

This accuracy is plenty acceptable to me, but I am interested in what y'all think about these bullets being seated so shallowly in the cases. BTW, one of the reloads was left in the magazine and checked after each of the first five shots to see if the bullet moved. It didn't.

Any comments on the OAL/seating depth? Any other observations or suggestions?

[mike ford]

Hook,
" The proof is in the pudding". If the load feeds and doesn't shed the bullets and shoots, use it.
Mike

[Hook]

That is my plan, Mike. That is, unless someone who has 'been there, done that' tells me it might not be a good idea.

By the way, in rereading this thread, I realized I had earlier given this rifle a little too much credit in the accuracy department. I guess I had the Kohle (Type S copy) rifle and an earlier 8X57 I once owned in mind when I stated that. This one has had an occasional nice group, but 2"-3", or even sometimes more, has been by far the norm with it. If it will maintain this accuracy without complications from the shallow seating depth, it will expand the ranges at which I am comfortable hunting with it.

[Diz]

Hook,

Maybe Weatherby chambered that rifle! Six tenths is a long haul but I fully agree with Mike about if it is working then use it. Seating out increases the case volume and lowers pressure. Seating closer to the land increases it but in your case the jump is still there and there shouldn't be any issues as long as the bullet will stay in and not get pushed out of alignment when feeding from the magazine. I didn't reread the whole thread but assume that you found this issue from a chamber cast. Not much else to be done except the usual messing with powder and bullets etc. Unless some one has another idea out there.

Thanks, Diz

[Hook]

No chamber cast. In an attempt to see if adjusting bullet seating depth would improve accuracy, I decided to employ the old poor boy method of checking for maximum COL. You push a cleaning rod against the bolt face and mark it at the muzzle. Then take a bullet you want to use and hold it lightly against the lands and push the cleaning rod in again until it touches the bullet nose and mark it again at the muzzle. The length between the marks is your max OAL.

When that max OAL turned out to be 0.2" longer than the added length of the case and the bullet, I knew I had a little bit of freebore! I have always adhered to the old rule of thumb to seat bullets to at least their diameter of depth, but used 0.2" as a trial. Worked pretty good....now if they will stay put during usage.

Axel said this barrel might be one of the surplus machine gun barrels stockpiled by the German army. Could it be that those barrels had a long freebore on purpose to help pressures during automatic fire?

[mike ford]

Hook,
There is not enough barrel shoulder left to completely fix the problem, but you could set the barrel back one thread and rechamber it. This would take part of the excess freebore, but not all of it. The question in whether you want to go through that for a partial "fix".
Mike

[Hook]

Yep, thought of that, but continue to test with these long COL reloads to see if they will stand the test of time. If not, I may just send the action to JES and let him rebore it to .358 and make me another 9X57. I have the chambering reamer already and I really like the round.

[mike ford]

Hook,
There is a lot to like about the 9x57(but also 8x57).
Mike