.318 230 gr. Jacketed bullets

[Fred]

Anyone one have some extras or a reliable source for them?

[Diz]

Fred, I think a 230 grain in .318" is going to be a tough one to find especially jacketed. Buffalo Arms has a 200 grain SP and Hawk shows a 220 grain round nose but I think that's about it unless someone else out there has something. Thanks, Diz

[mike ford]

Fred,
If you can find 230gr .323" bullets, you can resize them to .318", without much problem. I try to limit resizing bullets to no more than .005", and the difference between .323" and .318" is exactly that. I use a "ring sizing die" to do this, but I think one of the Lee Loader bullet sizing dies will work and they are pretty economical. Since the Lee system is used in a normal loading press, you shouldn't have a problem with power. You can put a little lanolin in a can( maybe coffee can)and dump a whole box of bullets in and roll them around. After sizing, lighter fluid on a towel with the bullets rolled around in it, cleans them up pretty well. This makes you the "reliable source".
Mike

[Diz]

Fred, Mike is right and Berger makes a 230 grain .323" and Sierra has a 240 grain Match King. Hunting type bullets are another story. Thanks, Diz

[Fred]

Thanks, guys. I will give the Lee a try on the Bergers.

[Diz]

Fred, if I may ask any special reason for the 230 grain weight? Thanks, Diz

[Fred]

Double rifle proofed with 230s. Not mine, btw, but that would seem like a good place to start loading.

[sharps4590]

Fred, your post prompts a question I've had for a while. If a double rifle, or any other rifle for that matter, is proofed with a particular bullet weight does that automatically mean it is regulated for, or in the case of a single barrel rifle with fixed sights sighted with, that particular bullet weight? Or, is it what it says it is, simply the bullet weight the rifle was proofed with?

[Diz]

Sharps, you made me dig out my British Rules of Proof to refresh my memory and the proof master could select any combination of powder, load and bullet that would yield the pressure they needed for proof. So in their case it may have nothing to do with regulation. My double is stamped with the appropriate proof marks but also with the load. I could be wrong but presume that the maker stamped the load used for regulation on the barrels.

HB&P Proof Marks.jpg

This is a 450-400 NE (400 Jeffery) with 400 grain bullet and 55 grains of cordite. They called this the "tropical" load intended for hot climates. The gun regulates perfectly at 2100 FPS with a 400 grain Woodliegh.

So that's my two cents but what does it mean for a German gun? I am not sure.

Thanks, Diz

[sharps4590]

Diz, I knew some British rifles had the regulated load on the flats but that was the extent of my knowledge. I didn't know if that was always done after a certain date or as a courtesy....or what. Truth is I didn't know enough about it to mention it other than it was/is done. My Reilley in 500 BPE from the 1880's isn't so stamped nor is my German double but it pre-dates the 1891-1893 proof law.

The question occurred to me when working up loads for my 1903 M/S. Without looking I believe it was proofed with a 140 gr. bullet which I thought sort of odd given the reputation earned with 6.5 X 54 was mostly with a 160 gr. bullet.......I thought. Maybe not, I'm still pretty ignorant about a lot of stuff when it comes to European proof laws and practices.

[sharps4590]

Diz, I knew some British rifles had the regulated load on the flats but that was the extent of my knowledge. I didn't know if that was always done after a certain date or as a courtesy....or what. Truth is I didn't know enough about it to mention it other than it was/is done. My Reilley in 500 BPE from the 1880's isn't so stamped nor is my German double but it pre-dates the 1891-1893 proof law.

The question occurred to me when working up loads for my 1903 M/S. Without looking I believe it was proofed with a 140 gr. bullet which I thought sort of odd given the reputation earned with 6.5 X 54 was mostly with a 160 gr. bullet.......I thought. Maybe not, I'm still pretty ignorant about a lot of stuff when it comes to European proof laws and practices.

[mike ford]

The British rules of proof and the German or Austrian rules were not exactly the same. The German rules were different at different times. The latest pre-war rules required the rifles be proofed for the highest pressure normal load that would chamber, regardless of which load it was regulated for. At other times, the proof load was shown on the gun and at still other times, the bullet shown was the Duty bullet. I would welcome comments by Axel.

[Axel E]

I doubt very muc h that a reformed, sized to .318 or .320", 230 gr modern american bullet with a copper alloy jacket, especially a pointed/boat tail one, will help you in regulating. Regulation also depends on bullet shape, bearing surface, jacket hardness as well as weight. Further, are there scope mount bases on the DR? If so, the rifle may have been regulated either for open sight or scope use. These are not the same! See John's post at this thread: http://www.germanguns.com/upload/sho...ation-question
I am currently experimenting with my latest acquisition, a double rifle in 9.3x74R, Suhl made for retail by R.Huebner, Darmstadt, but Zella-Mehlis proofed April 1919.





I provisionally mounted an old Weaver K2.5 with Talley rings on the original mount bases.(not claw mount)

The rifle with this set up badly crossfires with several bullet weights and loads so far. So it may have been regulated for open sight use. I will have to try it this way too.
What's the age of your friend's DR, pre- or post-WW1? As the bullet, not powder weight is given, it is at least post-1911. Up to WW1 the 8x57IR was loaded with the 1888 14.7g = 227gr bullet only, but in the 1920s the 196ngr bullet weight became fashionable until it became standard in the 1930s.
The bullet weight stamped by the proofhouse tells nothing about regulation, merely about the proof load used. Until 1939 a gunmaker could specify the exact load for which the gun was to be proofed. If he did not, the proofhouse simply used their "standard" proof cartridge for the chambering and stamped that bullet weight. Scope mounting and final regulation of the barrels was usually done after the gun was proofed in the white.
If in your place I would first start with a standard 196 gr .318" bullet like a Sellier & Bellot or Woodleigh and a below max powder charge. shoot the rifle with open sights first. Rule of thumb: If the rifle shoots the barrels apart, velocity is too low and/or bullet too heavy. If the rifle crosses (left barrel hit to the right of right barrel), velocity is high and/or bullet weight low.
If the DR was regulated for scope use, other factors enter the game, such as scope weight and the often overlooked most important one: Time span between right-left shots! After firing the right barrel this one warms up and expands lengthwise, slightly bending the barrel assembly to the left. On an open sighted DR this is compensated for in part by the front sight moving with the muzzles. But a scope with it's short mount does not follow the muzzles. So a scoped DR will shoot both barrrels into a single group only if both barrels are cold again after the last right / left pair, at least 10 minutes later, and the time interval between right and left shots is exactly the same. German gunmakers once used an absurdly long time span of 20 sconds between shots for regulating.
As you see, handloading for a double rifle is several notches above handloading for a bolt action, with each DR showing ideosyncrasies of it's own.

[Diz]

I say there is always something to learn here and it is true. Axel brings up an interesting point I never considered and that concerns a scoped DR’s regulation. I have never owned one so equip so never had the problem but that is great information and makes perfect sense. Of course the rest concerning bullet weight and barrel heating and all is exactly correct and worth considering.

Thanks Axel and very nice rifle as well. Diz

[Axel E]

To quote Graeme Wright's "Shooting the British Double Rifle", 3rd edition, an essential book for anyone into handloading for double rifles (and dr drillings, btw), British or not:
"I have spoken to the regulators at Holland & Holland about scopes on double rifles.If a double is ordered with a scope, it will be regulated with EITHER the open sights OR the scope, not both. . . . If a scope is fitted, the rifle is normally regulated with the scope sight. It would be very much a matter of chance, that if after the rifle was regulated with a scope, the rifle would also regulate with it's open sights."
My new 9.3x74R dr was perhaps regulated with the open sights, scope bases and scope added as an afterthought. As I have the rifle in hands for just two weeks, I will have to find out.