Bullets for 9.3 x 72R Drilling

[sharps4590]

Lube the bullet first, then size.

[Diz]

Sharps is a man of few words (sometimes) but exactly right. I found this out while resizing bullets for my 12.7 x 44R. As cast they were 350 grains .515" diameter and I needed .497". All early attempts resulted in almost no grease grooves remaining. Then I dipped them in melted lube first and after they cooled, ran them back through the sizer. The lube prevented the grooves from collapsing. It was easier to size and you're done. I do them in two steps. One to .505" and then .497". I think I posted photo's of the "push through" tools I made in the vom Hofe thread.

Thanks, Diz

[mike ford]

I use factory 11mm(43)Spanish bullets, saved from "pulling down" a case of ammo that wouldn't shoot: to make a deer load for my .404. By the time I size from .433" to .425", the lube grooves are pretty much wiped out, but rolling them in Alox and drying works for me. Of course you can't do this if using Black Powder. I use .364" bullets in a .358" barrel, the difference being what the chamber will accept( another rifle with .359" barrel won't chamber this same bullet). I had intended to size one more time to .360", but discovered I didn't have to. Sizing to .360" would leave very little lube grooves, also. Each rifle seems to be a "law unto itself" and it seems that what works in one won't work in another. My advice is if you find something that works well, make sure you buy enough to last the rest of your life; you never know how long they will be available.
Mike

[sharps4590]

I suspect it's a rare occasion I'm so succinct. There's been a lot going on the last few months and right now my sinuses are trying to kill me in some slow, sadistic, pounding sort of way. If I thought it would do any good I'd cry, stick my head in the hot tub or get drunk.

[Nathaniel Myers]

Even with today's incredibly accurate and consistent barrels there is still some taper and often minor variances in bore diameter. There are many, usually "old school" gun makers who will slug a bore to find a loose and tight spot. You want the bore to tighten up about an inch and a half from the muzzle.

With the quality of today's barrels, even "budget" brand barrels, the inconsistency is tenths, not thousandths. I find slugging to be a wasted effort with modern barrels, but some still think it worthwhile.

Just. . . An anecdote. Sorry I can't contribute about the bullets. I am curious to hear more results. I have 8 DWM rounds and maybe 10 or 15 RWS rounds and about 40 pcs of RWS brass that need loaded.

Keep us posted!

[Diz]

Advice to Sharps, dunk your head in the hot tub THEN get drunk not the other way around. I wish for your continued participation on this board! Diz

[mike ford]

I think when Nathanial talks about "tenths" ,he means tenths of a thousandth.
Mike

[Leatherman]

I use factory 11mm(43)Spanish bullets, saved from "pulling down" a case of ammo that wouldn't shoot: to make a deer load for my .404. By the time I size from .433" to .425", the lube grooves are pretty much wiped out, but rolling them in Alox and drying works for me. Of course you can't do this if using Black Powder. I use .364" bullets in a .358" barrel, the difference being what the chamber will accept( another rifle with .359" barrel won't chamber this same bullet). I had intended to size one more time to .360", but discovered I didn't have to. Sizing to .360" would leave very little lube grooves, also. Each rifle seems to be a "law unto itself" and it seems that what works in one won't work in another. My advice is if you find something that works well, make sure you buy enough to last the rest of your life; you never know how long they will be available.
Mike

Ok, I have a few questions regarding bullet/bore size. I am hearing two completely different ways of picking the proper bullet. I have always followed the reloading manuals and many articles on sizeing the bullet to your bore, jacketed bullets sized no larger than bore size, lead bullets should be .001" to .002" over bore size and worn of excessive pressures if bullets are oversized! But as you stated Mike, I have also been told use the lead bullet that fits in a fire formed case. My new dies I had made for the double Rasch rifle size the throat for a 11.5mm or .456" bullet as my chamber throat is such, but my bore cast measures .445" .I can't use the .447" Mauser bullet unless I use 43 Mauser sizeing dies to size the neck down but the extreme difference in my throat and the bore has me confused. I am concerned that sizeing down to the .447 bullet and then fireing will over stress the brass and I will not get many reloads before the necks start cracking. But if I can use a .456" or what ever in between size bullet that will seat tight in my formed case that should eliminate that. So what is the answer. Is there any concern useing lead bullets that are as much as .011" oversized? Is there a difference if you use hard cast versus softer alloys? Keep in mind we are shooting older guns many are black powder proofed. My Rasch is a Damascus black powder proofed gun in excellent condition. I am wanting to develope both a smokeless and a BP load and bullet for this rifle. Starting with smokeless for hunting and casual target shooting.

[Diz]

Leatherman, what is the actual cartridge for your Rasch? I was thinking it was a 43 Mauser but I am a little confused. I have a lot of cartridge drawings for these old ones so let me know and we can start from there. Thanks, Diz

[Leatherman]

From my chamber casting dimensions I found a 11.6 X 82.5mm cartridge in a book of European cartridges that pretty much matched. The chamber cast shows a large forceing cone tapered to a bore size of .445. The bore has 7 grooves so I had to rotate the slug in my calibers to get that measurement. 11.6mm equals .456". That's a difference of .011". I sent the chamber cast and my bore cast to CH Dies and he made the dies and labeled them as 11.6X 82.5mm. However when I sized the Hornady .450 express brass the throat winds up around .443 or .444" . When I use the next die to expand the neck, it opens it up to fit a .456" bullet. So the loaded case tapers down to .444 and then expands out to a .456" which is not right. I don't understand why they made the sizeing die size the neck down to fit the bore but make the expander to fit the chamber unless they expect me to either use an bullet .011" oversized for the first firing and then just neck size it from then on as a lot of black powder shooters do or did they expect me to use a bore sized bullet in which I would have to use 43 Mauser dies to neck size for the .447" bullet. Everything I read says to keep bullets in the .002" to .003" over bore size for best accuracy. Useing oversized bullets causes too much bullet upsetting and effect accuracy. Now this ain't no bench gun and I will be happy with 2-3"groups at 50 yards off hand off the bench as you are supposed to shoot double rifles. The black powder guys say the best bullet is one that can be loaded in a fired and cleaned case, not sized. Now that may be true with modern made rifles with modern specs on throat dimensions. But I can't find any mention of what to do in my situation with such a difference in throat size to bore size except a reference to an old article from a well respected authority on cast bullets that said if the gun will chamber an oversize bullet it will be safe to shoot as lead bullets will squeeze down to fit the bore without any worry. But then you hear just the opposite and read warnings not to go more than .004" over bore size. Factor in my gun is BP proofed and Damascus steel from the 1880's, I am very concerned. I would like to know what they did back in this era.

[sharps4590]

First of all please differentiate between bore diameter and groove diameter. I think I know where you are but when you write "bore" I think you mean groove. Yes, no or am I thoroughly confused? Secondly, I would start with BP as it MIGHT be easier to come up with a load that regulates. BP cartridge chamber throats were often cut somewhat generously to accommodate fouling. I have noticed the same thing in the two non-nitro proofed German firearms I have and in all the old American BP cartridge rifles I've worked with. The softer bullets were undersized and expected to "bump up" to groove diameter. It may seem wrong but it worked and worked well. For BP loads I will always use a bullet cast no harder than 25-1 and nearly always size at least .002 above groove diameter and sometimes shoot them as cast as with my 10.5 X 47R which leaves them about .004 above groove. I let the throat dimension land where it may. If you've read and/or tried all that I apologize for being redundant.

Given the length of your cartridge I suspect you are going to run into the "running out of lube" problem associated with long, BP cases. Don't give up on it, it can be overcome. Not really wanting to toot my own horn but to toot my own horn here's a 100 yard group fired with a BP cartridge and open sights, benched and bagged. The bottom two shots were looking for the elevation. Fired from a Johann Outschar stalking rifle. Granted it's one barrel and in excellent condition and I had an exceedingly fortunate day....but it can be done and results as below are very gratifying.



You may also hit a wall with BP not producing enough velocity to regulate the barrels. This too can be overcome.

Regarding your brass life, if you anneal every 2-4 reloads I cannot imagine you will have any problems with case neck splits when using BP. Smokeless may be another story but I doubt it.

[Diz]

Sharps,

Did you shoot this target after soaking your head and getting drunk? Just kidding!

Leatherman,

I looked in everything I had for a cartridge with that designation but came up empty. However, I believe that what you actually have is a 450 Black Powder Express 3-1/4” case. This makes perfect sense to me especially chambered in a double rifle. According to the drawing for the BP express the appropriate bullet is .458” diameter. The only problem as I see it is your “bore” diameter of .445”. This seems a bit tight for this cartridge. But lead bullets are very forgiving that way.

As far as why the dies were made the way they were it’s hard to say but when I form 12.7 x 44R from 348 Win brass there is a distinct recess behind the bullet due to the initial dimensions of the case. This goes away on first firing so I wouldn’t be too concerned about it other than the brass gets worked a lot and will shorten the life unless you anneal often as Sharps suggests.

What I might suggest is check the clearance at the “neck” of the case in the chamber to be sure that the case has a few thousandths to expand and release the bullet when you have the diameter bullet you want seated. This clearance can actually be very close but should not interfere with release on firing. Again the bore/chamber relationship on my 12.7 is such that I have to shoot bore diameter bullets and only have about .002” clearance at the neck but it is OK in my rifle. Accuracy is also very good.

If this is actually your cartridge then you are in good shape all around. Brass is easy to find and the BP cartridge was loaded to about 11,000 psi which gives you something to work with. They were also loaded with from 270 grain up to 365 grain bullets. Also there was a smokeless for black load of 45 grains of cordite for this cartridge as well and loading data isn't hard to find.

This is just an educated guess on my part but post some pictures especially showing all the marks if possible. There are way more knowledgeable guys then me on this board.

Thanks, Diz

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
First of all, jacketed bullets and cast bullets act entirely differently, with regard to pressure. My preferred jacketed bullet diameter is the same as groove diameter, and for cast bullets .002" over groove diameter. Sometimes you can use larger jacketed bullets, if necessary, but only if they will fit into the neck of a fired case, and only if the powder load is worked up for that bullet( never substitute a larger bullet in an established load). For lead bullets, pressures can be elevated, but they are not as critical. The bullet also should fit into a fired case, but I use 452" bullets in my 11mm Mauser, and they won't fit into a fired case. My Mod 71 Mauser has .452 groove( larger bullet won't fit into seating die.), so I size the loaded cartridge neck in a 444 Marlin sizing die. This gives the case enough room to expand and release the bullet, which then is two diameters(the front 452" and the rear smaller than that). Modern black powder shooters often do use bullets sized to fit in the unsized case. Old black powder ammo was often loaded with bullets sized to fit the bore diameter( not groove dia.) or smaller. They then depended on the black powder to make the bullet expand into the grooves. Still others used a paper patch to make up the difference. As you can see, there is no one rule regarding bullet diameters and absent a fair amount of experience, it is better to adhere to the preferred diameters. Please understand, none of the above is a recommendation for your rifle, since I have never seen your rifle nor any of your components or equipment. You will have to decide for yourself which load to use.
Mike

[Diz]

Ok, so I tried some cast bullets today in the 9.3x72R Collath drilling but it didn’t work out as well as I planned. The target tells the tale. I have had good luck with this powder in some cartridges but it doesn’t look good for this one. The load was 40 grains of Viht N-135 in S&B cases with Winchester LR primers. The bullet is a 215 grain Cast Bullet Engineering lubed with Lyman Molylube and sized to .365”. The chronograph showed a high of 2037 fps which is approximately where the QuickLoad predicted but the low was 1770 fps for a difference of 267 fps. That to me is a lot. The SD was 66 fps which isn’t too bad and the average was 1918 fps. This is about a hundred feet per second slow of predicted.

The first four were all over the target while I struggled to get a sight picture. I finally relented and went to get my shooting iris. That helped a lot and brought the group together (a little). There is a cluster of three almost touching so I think the bullet is OK. The hold was center of black. The overall group, after I could see, was 3-3/4” at 50 yards. I am hardly going to give Sharps any trouble with that.

Drilling Target.jpg




Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.

Thanks, Diz

[sharps4590]

Yes sir....but did you stick your head in the hot tub and get drunk first? Seriously just kidding!!!!!