Bullets for 9.3 x 72R Drilling

[Diz]

Has anyone used the 9.3mm 193 grain FP SP jacketed bullets from Buffalo Arms for a drilling? These look a lot like the two diameter bullet S&B uses in their ammo and they shoot pretty well out of my Collath drilling but are getting pricey. Heavier bullets don't shoot to the sights.

Thanks, Diz

[mike ford]

Diz,
I haven't used them, but from the photos, I'm sure they are reformed 200 gr,358" 35 Rem. bullets. This operation would only require the "point forming die", in my estimation. Even though I mostly use a 208 gr cast bullet in my main rifle, I have been thinking about reforming 200 gr and 180gr FP 35 cal bullets for a while. Maybe someone else will take the project over. I have a Corbin and a Herter bullet swaging press, but I think either a "Rock Crusher" or "Orange Crusher" loading press would have the power needed to go to .362 or .364", maybe larger. I don't remember(if I knew) the groove diameter of your rifle, but those lucky enough to have one with .358-.359" groove dia. can just use 200 gr. or 180 gr. FP 35 cal bullets "as is". The profile of the 193 gr FP 9.3 bullet is pretty complicated so it can be used in different dia. barrels. If made to fit a specific dia. barrel, a normal straight shank would be fine and "point forming die" wouldn't be nearly as complicated.
Mike

[Diz]

Mike,

I was hoping to avoid making more bullet forming dies as I just finished a set for a friends 470 Capstick. That one uses a 45 ACP case for a jacket. I have a Corbin "Walnut Hill" swaging press and a Redding big boss II loading press plus a twenty ton shop press for heavy stuff like the Capstick. The bore slugs at .366" so I pretty much have to bump everything up from 35 cal. The shape is pretty complicated as you point out but I like the two diameter bullets for lowering pressure. Maybe there is still someone out there that has used those bullets and can add to this.

By the way, I shot my 12.7 x 44R F.Hanquet today with some interesting results.

Thanks, Diz

[Leatherman]

Did you know that Collath designed this bullet and loaded it in their Tesco brand of ammo. It was designed to be able to be used in the multitude of bore sizes made before they normalized the bores and chamber sizes of all Germanic gun makers. I would think our Collath guns would shoot to the sights useing this bullet then as they most likely used it to sight the gun in when it was made. Buffalo Arms has been out of these for some months now. I have them on back order. They are made useing a thin soft copper jacket and soft lead core so they size to the bore easily and probably are easier on the old steel bores as well. I have used 200 grain Cobra bullets with good accuracy too . You can order any size and weight you need and specify the thickness and hardness of the jacket too. I use the thinnest and softest jacket and order to my bore size. I have three 9.3 guns which have bores from .358 to .366. I have read that people say you can shoot the Tesco style bullet from Buffalo Arms and S&B in the .358 bores but I prefer to side on caution and don't go below .362 bores. Prices are going up but there aren't many places to go to get these odd size bullets . Cheapest way to go is still casting your own lead bullets. But that is a lot of work and time for me.

[Diz]

Leatherman,

I am glad there is someone that used these with good results plus the info about jackets and cores is very helpful. I saw that they are out of these bullets also and will call them later today to check on delivery and most likely place an order. As I mentioned, the S&B ammo shoots very well in my Collath and this bullet looks a lot like it although now that I have checked the old Norma looks a lot like it too. I suppose that people copied the Tesco design because it worked. I tried cast as you suggest but the results were poor compared with the S&B. I admit to not being the best cast bullet guy and that has a lot to do with it. I assume that Cobra is a custom bullet maker. Is the bullet you mention two diameter?

Thanks for coming in. Diz

[mike ford]

The RWS 193gr FP 9.3 bullets I brought back are .364" and are also the Tesco or Express type. I think S&B are .365"and if my memory is correct, Norma's are .366"(as reported, I never had any). If the bullet is sized to the barrel, the TESCO type is not required.
Mike

[Leatherman]

My Buffalo bullets are .364 which is what the 9.3x72 normalized bores are supposed to be but the only 9.3 bore gun of mine that measures .364 is my Collath double rifle. I have a .362 and a .358 currently but got rid of a cape gun that had a .352 bore. That is why it is imperative that one slugs the bores of these guns to see exactly what they have before just buying a box of S&B shells and shooting the rifle. I have talked to a few guys who never slugged their bores on their 9.3 x72 drillings but bought S&B ammo figuring it was chambered for it like any modern gun. I have seen shotgun barrels on black powder proofed drillings busted from shooting modern 2 3/4" shells in them. I have a nice old BP proofed GL Rasch hammer drilling with cracks in the chambers myself. Like I said the Tesco designed bullets are designed to accomadate the various bore sizes and have read where it can be used in bores as tight as .358 but I am stopping at .362. There are other bullets out there at .358 that will work well. Cobra is a custom bullet maker as I mentioned before that will make any size and weight jacketed bullet pretty much you want. You can even tell them where you want the crimping groove. I have them make the .358 200 grain FP for my hammer drilling and it shoots excellent. I have to take the expander plug out of my sizeing die and crimp the load or I don't always get consistent ignition useing 3031 powder. This cartridge needs a good bullet tension in the case for proper ignition or you will be driving bullets out of your bore. Also I believe the .366 bullets should only be used in the 9.3x74 which bore is at .366.

[Diz]

Leatherman,

Thanks for the info on those bullets. It is interesting because I pulled a S&B which I thought it was and an old RWS and both measured exactly .366”. Both are two diameter, 193 grain bullets but the RWS is nickel jacketed while the S&B is copper. As I mentioned my drilling shoots the S&B ammo very well but I have not shot the RWS. I don’t mind shooting factory ammo but prefer to load my own. I have to call Buffalo Arms about a mold tomorrow and will ask more about these bullets.

I think there are a lot of misconceptions about shooting smokeless in old BP guns. Everyone has heard about Damascus guns coming unglued but I have been shooting them with smokeless for years without incident. However I have spent a very long time developing low pressure loads that all but duplicate BP. Many people think that “target” and “low brass” mean low pressure when the opposite in usually true. Most target shells are loaded to 10K psi and more for consistency and clean burning. These pressures can be hard on old barrels. The problem I faced was consistency at low pressure. This was very hard to do especially in a short shell like a 2-1/2” 12 gauge but with the right combinations loads in the 5K psi range could be achieved. Pressures are even lower in the ten gauge. These loads have been verified several times at two different ballistic labs and many hundreds of rounds fired through my old guns. Now I am doing it again since my powder of choice has been discontinued but I have the advantage of experience with hulls and wads. A lot of people say to me why don't you just shoot BP and forget about it. I could do that but I wouldn't have learned anything from it. This stuff isn’t for everyone and takes a lot of effort but I feel it is worth it in the end to be able to keep shooting these old guns.

Thanks, Diz

[mike ford]

In measuring the groove diameter of old drillings, care must be exercised to insure correct results. There really are 9.3 drillings with .352" grooves ( I know of two myself), but if they have an uneven number of grooves, there is the danger that they can be mis-measured as being smaller than they actually are. A barrel with an equal number of grooves have the grooves directly opposite each other. On the other hand, with an uneven number of grooves( such as 3,5,7, etc.), a groove is opposite a land. Consequently normal measuring tools measure the slug from groove to land, rather than from groove to groove, resulting in a smaller measurement than the actual diameter. There are special micrometers that can correctly measure such slugs, and there is a method of measuring across the slug and a specially prepared "V-block", giving the correct diameter. A pretty good approximation can result from turning the slug within the jaws of a digital caliper, letting the slug force the jaws open until it "slips past" them. Of course, it depends on your point of view, whether it is worse to have a too small or too large measurement.
Mike

[Diz]

Leatherman & Mike,

Just for the heck of it I did a bore cast at the muzzle of my drilling and got a measurement of exactly .3645". This is interesting because I remeasured the chamber cast and it is .366" about one inch down the bore. This is showing a .0015" taper toward the muzzle something that would not show by slugging. Anyway it has four lands and grooves and is easy to measure. For the odd number rifling I have access to an optical comparator but I have used Mike's method of rotating the slug in the jaws and it works very well if care is taken. I still need to talk to Buffalo Arms about the bullets.

Thanks, Diz

[mike ford]

Diz,
Regarding the taper in your drilling barrel, your situation is the ideal; if it had tapered the other way, it would have been bad. This is why I usually advise a new owner to "slug " the barrel, and make a chambercast. This results in a groove diameter at the chamber and at the muzzle . If the discussion is about a safe bullet for a caliber, known for variation in groove diameters (like the 9.3), I might forego the slugging of the muzzle. I have found a small taper in groove diameter, toward the muzzle, to be very common in German combination guns. In the old days, German gunsmiths( barrel makers, rohrmakers ) routinely checked the bore diameters, to set them up with the taper this way. Modern manufacturing processes result in more uniform barrels. A study of proofmarks will show one for a choked rifled barrel. Barrels with this small amount of taper are not considered choked. In my unqualified opinion. a tapered bore is preferable to a uniform one, especially for cast bullets. Of course I know you know this, it is for the benefit of new members.
Mike

[Diz]

Mike,

I have never heard about "choked" rifle barrels and certainly not a proof to verify the same. I am thinking this is straight taper and not choke in the sense of a shotgun barrel. Of course there is the "Paradox" but that is something else again. How much taper is required before it is considered choked? You are correct about taper toward the muzzle as the ideal condition.

I spoke with Buffalo Arms this AM and had a nice discussion about their bullet. I say their bullet because they make it themselves and are currently waiting for jackets to resume production. The gentleman told me they were supposed to finish at .366" diameter and 193 grains.

My reason for the discussion initially was to see if anyone had used these bullets with any success but there are so many facets to even a simple question. I like this forum because there is always something to learn here.

Thanks, Diz

[mike ford]

Diz,
On review, I believe the Crown over intertwined S and W proofmark was intended for "Paradox" type barrels. Choked rifles were experimented with, between the wars, in an effort to produce hypervelocities; with some success. I guess this same mark would have been used with them, much the same way a crown G would have been used for a smoothbore intended for a single bullet.I don't know how much constriction would be required to use this mark, if at all. I'm a little surprised to learn Buffalo Arms makes their 9.3 bullets from "scratch", they looked like they had been reformed from 200gr 35 cal bullets. Maybe I saw them that way, because I had been "toying" with the idea to do just that, when (if) my "stash" of RWS bullets run out. I shoot mostly cast bullets now, so they will likely last longer than I will. There must be people that use the Buffalo Arms bullet, out there, otherwise they wouldn't be out. Maybe more people will "pipe up" with their experiences.
Mike

[Diz]

Mike,

Your mention of tapered bores and hyper-velocities prompted me to remember some things from my military training. I seem to recall that the Germans had two taper bore antitank guns that produced extraordinary velocities. I believe one was a smooth bore and the other was at least partially rifled. Again, very interesting developments in gun technology and way ahead in that respect.

My stash of 9.3x72R is down to one and a half boxes of S&B and a couple of rounds of RWS hence the need for a good bullet. Hopefully there are others that have used these. It is very difficult to find them in 193 grains which is why I am considering the Buffalo Arms.

Thanks again for all the side info on this caliber.

Diz

[Leatherman]

You would think there would be enough demand for a hard cast 190- 200 grain .366 bullet to be offered by a Buffalo Arms or some of the other bullet makers. Then one could get a Lee sizer for their guns bore size and quickly size them to fit the bore. But I have not found anyone offering any. I have a borrowed mold that puts out a 200 grain .369 bullet but by the time I size it down under .366 there is hardly any groove left to hold any lube. I have some sized to .367 to try in my Collath double rifle but I think the jacketed .366 Tesco design will be the best bullet for it.