1882 Commemorative double rifle???

[bummy268]

Dear Wise Ones:
I won a double rifle of unknown cartridge at auction that has no proof marks and no Crown V. The name G.F.Stormer is on the rib and back actions. Also on rib is “Herzberg A.H.”. Thanks to what I have learned from you guys by reading Forums this part I understand. On the butt plate are two numbers: 1882 over 1668. Under the tang sight are the letters CvH and a crown.

I believe the cartridge is the same 11.15X83R as Leatherman has documented on this forum and I have sent him a Private Message to ask his help to get this thing firing.

In studying the rest of the gun I ran into a bunch of history that made we wonder about the culture and politics of the area and time. Did Stormer make the gun in 1882 as a commemorative of Sophia Charlotte of Hannover (30 October 1668 – 1 February 1705) who was the first Queen Consort of Prussia as wife of King Frederick I. Did makers do such historical references either to help sell a gun or on commissions for someone who honored their history? Then I ran into a bunch of references about Hannover incl. Herzberg, George II and III etc.. Great stuff. (story here http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/Sec...567&NRID=1)and George III's (mad George) wife was also named Sophia Charlotte.

Could the initials CvH stand for a still revered Charlotte of Hannover? (found that in German small v can stand as abbreviation for “of”). Does a crown mean royalty?
OK so maybe nobody cares, but I am learning a lot on how a conspiracy theory begins and takes on life. My real question: Did period guns frequently have historical references or commemorations? Also does anyone know where I can find a replacement for the 3rd flip up sight?
This link should take you to better pictures than I can take of the gun:


http://www.icollector.com/Antique-Ge...rmer_i22665041

stormer9.jpgstormer8.jpgstormer7.jpg
stormer10.jpg

[fuhrmann]

I think commemorative guns are an invention of 20th century marketing - not with this rifle.
The cartouche with crown and initials should indicate the first owner, who had the rifle made by the gunsmith Störmer in Herzberg am Harz.
The crown with seven "pearls" indicates a Baron.
Lack of proof marks indicates the rifle was made before 1891, so 1882 might be the year of manufacture.

Regards, fuhrmann

[Axel E]

C.F. Störmer/Stoermer in Herzberg am Harz (= at the Hercynian mountains) was listed in 1892 as employing 11 gunsmithes. He died in 1904. At the death of his son Ludwig Störmer in 1925 all gunmaking in Herzberg ended. Störmer's former factory building in Herzberg, Junkernstr.1, is still standing.
The German proof law came into force on April 1, 1893. The crown/V Vorratszeichen was stamped in February and March 1893 only, according to the decree "Bekanntmachung, betreffend die Anbringung der Vorrathszeichen auf Handfeuerwaffen, January 4, 1893" So your rifle was made and sold before. I take 1668 as Störmer's serial number and 1882 as the year of manufacture.
Now, a big diappointment to you: A crown is not a royal crown everytime! A common American misconception about the meaning of crowns, so I can answer here by "copy & paste":
Just got the printed copy of “Waidmannsheil #54”. At once I noticed a grave mistake on page 30:
“Only those with royal blood in their veins could use a crown as part of their monogram.”
This is just plain wrong, often leading to overrating a former owner, especially in America! I often have to explain that a monogram consisting of one or more letters under some crown does not indicate a well-known monarch as the original owner of a gun.
Crowns of different shapes indicated any rank of nobility and gentry, from the Kaiser down to a simple “von Soandso”. It’s the shape and design of the crown that points to the rank of the original owner! The matter is complicated further as you have to determine also the nationality of the owner, as the various European Realms used different rank crowns. You may have a closer look at the different crowns on Wikipedia, somewhat superficial in the English version http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronet or more complete in the German one http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangkrone
Some time ago an American gun auction offered “Kaiser Wilhelm’s favorite plinking rifle”, a highly engraved and gold inlaid M71 type smallbore bolt action. On the receiver ring it was inlaid with a crown showing 5 pearls on top above a big W. Such a crown is not appropriate for a Kaiser or King, but indicates a simple “von”, nobilized by Royal Letter for military, economic or scientific success, like for instance Nikolaus von Dreyse, but without any title like Freiherr/Baron (7 pearls), count (9 pearls), duke and so on.
So your rifle was made by Stoermer for a lowly Freiherr/Baron C.von H., impossible to identify now. There were simply to many persons of that rank with the Initials CvH in northern Germany, most of them long forgotten.

[bummy268]

Fascinating, and absolutely clarifying. I don't think such an explanation is elsewhere in the Forums, so I am glad it is now explained. I am from Dutch and Austrian heritage, but so many generations ago that my brothers go about seriously telling of our "Royal" connections, which is pure fabrication or my multi-lingual great grandparents would not have been farmers. Yes Americans seem to be ignorant of yet enthralled by it all. Thank you both for the concept and references for counting pearls. I definitely want to learn more on that.
Axel E., I saw your name in the historical stuff I ran into. Have you published a compendium of this gun related knowledge in English? Best Wishes, Tom.

[mike ford]

bummy268,
While giving you good historical information, it seems no one responded to your question about the rear sight leaf. There are parts available that can be fit to your rifle and closely match the original. I suggest you contact one of the Firms in the Trade Directory of WAIDMANNSHEIL, or New England Custom Guns. You mentioned your belief that the caliber is 11.15x83R. Have you made a chambercast and "slugged" the barrel? If not, the gunsmith that replaces the sight leaf can do this for you. Someone might suggest not repairing the gun with new parts as a "modification". If so this argument has no merit, it would be completely reversible by simply removing the new leaf.
Mike

[bummy268]

Mike, thank you for your attention to detail. Yes I have cast and slugged, messed with 450 PBE, then stumbled across the thread by Letterman titled GL Rasch. My cast measurements are about 7-8 thousands bigger than his mid-case, but mouth, length and base/rim are spot on. Grooves are .437, which is smaller than the Rasch, but I shoot .43 Mausers which for some reason are all .434 in German sporter combinations, so I am set up to squeeze down my cast bullets and paperpatch once I get a case to fit.

Thank you for the caution about "modification" and especially the referral to NECG. I am having trouble believing the adjusting screws are original, so I don't think a new leaf will matter much. On a similar issue, I have a couple guns, including this one, where the escutcheon plates of the wedge are simple unengraved brass oval plates. At first I thought they were replacements done by a semi-skilled person, but I keep running into them on very nice guns. Any thoughts?

Axel was so kind in his response. I would be so frustrated by guys like me that build elaborate stories on little evidence that then become "real". Take the myth of "Guild Guns" that won't die. It is amazing what story you can create when you are not hampered by knowledge or fact.
Best Wishes, Tom.

[mike ford]

Tom,
If you shoot patched bullets, you already know what to do. I haven't gotten into patching and shoot mine "nekid". In my 43 Mausers( 11.15x60R) I always used either .446" or .452"(which is a real trick to do). I try to use cast bullets .002" over groove diameter, but sometimes deviate from that. If you use .434", it looks like you use bore diameter bullets and black powder, but that goes against your reporting the groove diameter, which is correct? I've seen so much damage caused by black powder that I can't bring myself to use it in my old German sporters. Sometimes I see a little engraving on escutcheons, but for the most part, my experience has been like yours. The difference in chambercast dimensions of only 7-8 thousandths is "nothing", cases will conform to the chamber.
Mike

[sharps4590]

Tom, that double is a nice score. Are you going to be shooting black or smokeless?

[bummy268]

Hi Mike. I posted Feb. 14 of this year and you helped me with the bullet size and weight thing. I bought a custom .434 mold, and sizers of .430 and .427 and have been screwing around with them. You could challenge my $12 Harbor Freight caliper, but darn if that thing doesn't test correct when I measure numerous commercial bullets, mold, etc.. (those 8 year old Chinese kids turn out some good stuff sometimes, but not their electric motors). So far what I'm trying to do is size 7 thousands under groove, then 2 wrap Buffalo's Onion Skin paper.
PS: I really don't know what I'm doing, I only got into this about 2 years ago and my eyes are too crappy to see the fine German sights to know if my attempts are accurate or not. I consider it a success if it gets down range.
Leatherman and I have been talking today and he offered to send me one of his cases after he tries his new dies. I also found a cartridge in GunBroker listed as a 450 BPE but the swell of the base exactly matches the look of my cast. It is listed as a Berdan primer, so I decided to believe it is a 11.15x83R and bought it. My brilliance or folly will be examined when it gets here.

450 bpe2.jpg
Sharps4590, for some reason I love the low frequency KARUMPP of black powder and the stink and cloud of the smoke. Then hate it when I get home but persist anyway. A disease I guess with no cure. I have a Shilo 45-110, and even with a big grease cookie taking up space it still kicks the hell out of me. I will not load the 11.15x83R up, but am going to try Buffalo's filler stuff (name escapes me for the moment) to take it easier on me and the gun. Leatherman warned me it will screw up the regulating, but right now I just want to hear it speak. Thanks again my new friends. Tom.

[sharps4590]

Tom, you're preaching to the choir. I've been a black powder buff since the early 1970's. I have an E. Goldmann German double rifle in 11.15 X 60R that took me about 6 months of serious handloading and shooting to get to regulate. Providing the regulation is good and the bores decent it can be done and oh what fun! I consider that rifle my dissertation for my Phd in handloading. I also shoot many other BP cartridge firearms, domestic and German. I have two Shiloh Sharps, one in 45-90 and the other in 40-70 SS. My 45-100 Ballard kicks the snot out of me with a full BP load and a 510 gr. bullet. Your 45-110 can only be more of the same.

My BP cartridge rifles actually clean a lot easier than my nitro rifles. Usually 6-8 patches and the bore glistens. Brass clean up....yes sir, that's a bit of a pain but nothing compared to the satisfaction of the "KARUMPP of black powder and the stink, (that's a fragrance my friend...), and the cloud of smoke".

[mike ford]

Tom,
Since you are going to shoot that nasty old black powder with patched bullets, I bow to the superior knowledge and experience of Vic( Sharps 4590) and others here. BTW I don't mind cleaning the barrel; it's the damage inside the actions, I've seen over the years, caused by gasses getting into obscure places. I don't like excessive "stripping" of old guns. I understand why others don't mind it though. It may be that economics always dictated I deal with less than fine condition guns.
Mike

[Axel E]

I saw your name in the historical stuff I ran into.

Of course, as allthat stuff about the forgotten gunmaking center Herzberg a.H. on Dietrich's website came from your's truly. Several years ago Dietrich, then editor of "Der Waffenschmied", came across that drilling shown by him (In fact, that are pages from the Waffenschmied). As he knew nothing about Herzberg gunmakers, he asked me . I wrote up thestuff as I could find it and made athe photo of the former Stoermer factory. I live only about 60 miles from Herzberg and I was then responsible for the woods you see around the castle as a state forester. Dietrich, as usual, heavily edited the stuff I sent and mangled it somewhat befor publishing.

. Have you published a compendium of this gun related knowledge in English?

No, because I my self am still learning. And, I am too busy researching and answering questions sent by fellow GGCA members. The resulting scribblings are usually published in "Der Waffenschmied" and "Waidmannsheil!", periodicals of the GGCA. A "compendium" on German gunmaking and "related stuff" would fill a library.
Waidmannsheil!
Axel

[Dan Patch]

In waxing lyrical about the charms of using black powder in firearms employing metallic cartridges don't forget those cartridges cases that will need to be scrubbed as thoroughly as the bore of the arm itself. Ruin them and you won't be able to shoot the darned thing! Dan

[bummy268]

Well Sirs Mike and Pat, you two certainly know how to bring a party to a halt. Now I sit here feeling guilty about not disassembling and tumbling. As a recovering catholic I know a bit about guilt.

My own belief, developed about the time I got my Medicare card, is that "Most people give up on denial as a remedy way too soon". So...I think I will deny there is a problem. Happy shooting upwind from the other guy!

[mike ford]

Tom,
I don't mind being downwind, I actually like the smell of it.
Mike