Where to buy German style scope mounts.

[Leatherman]

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Some more pictures.

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
I remember your nice work from other threads. If you go back to my comments on the previous page, where I talked about the Ernst Apel Wurzburg (EAW)( I initially mistakenly credited ERA with this-they may now have one) system to convert clawmount bases to "swingmount". Your system using Leupold rings can very easily changed over to something similar, avoiding a lot of hand work. You would replace the plate in the front base with one made to fit a stock Leupold front ring,or modify a Leupold front base to fit the dovetail in the clawmount base. For the rear, EAW offers 3 ways to adapt to swing mounts. One is to use a base that fits into the unmodified rear base, but depends on epoxy rather than close fitting to hold it. The second is similar, but the original base is slightly modified by milling the top and replacing the "slider" with a bar. The third is to replace the rear base, entirely. The first system is mainly for those owners that insist any mods be reversible. Are we confused now?
Mike

[Leatherman]

I have seen some of the conversions. They are clean looking and also allow the use of any modern scope and keep the scope low for proper cheek weld on most guns. I choose to put the extra effort and expense, although my expense is my time, into keeping the cool factor and originality of the claw mounts as these guns were made to have. If it weren't so expensive and hard to do, I would have all original period correct German scopes on my guns as well, but that is a whole other subject and tedious job. I am working on scoping my Collath double rifle with a new set of claw mounts, a new rear base and a little German scope taken from another rifle I had. I just thought this rifle had to have it all back original and it will be well worth the time and effort. When I am done and I have got it regulated to shoot with and without the scope I plan to post the whole project or perhaps write an article in the Waidmansnsheil.

[sharps4590]

Look forward to that one Leatherman!! I wish I had the machine skills of some of the members on this board.

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
I too would like to see it, but they told me not to write gunsmithing articles or give powder loads, connected to cartridges. Virtually none of these old guns originally had scopes or mounts, they were installed "after market". Changing the type of scope or mounts, now, doesn't change the originality of the gun. That said, I too prefer and usually use clawmounts. The guns and money are yours, you can do whatever you want with them.
Mike

[Diz]

Jager01,

I would add that while you are picking and placing the scope with reference to the mounts that you check the eye relief as well and make sure you can see through the scope when it is in position and have adequate clearance from your brow. It may take two or more people to accomplish the task. This is sometimes overlooked and can become a real problem for you later.

Thanks, Diz

[Leatherman]

Diz, you are right about eye relief. That is why I like the vintage Weaver scopes, they have a generous amount of eye relief and they look period although they are 1" tubes. The old Alaskan 3/4" scopes are better but are as expensive as an original German scope. A couple of high strength magnets help in holding a scope in place to check eye relief and ring location. Stacking multiple magnets on the bases helps decide on the height for the rings as well. I have a good amount of magnets in 1/8" thickness by 1/2" x3/4" that I use all the time to hold things steel in place for mocking up things.
Mike, I showed a couple of my guns to the board at the last meeting in SC this summer and they suggested I write an article on making rings. Perhaps this is OK as it does not alter or modify the gun itself . I will have to clarify this with them before I do anything. I understand the deal on quoting powder charges because of liability reasons. But I can still describe what steps I went through to make the 9.3x80 Collath brass on the forum to help someone out there that is looking to get their Collath rifle shooting again too. Isn't this what this forum is all about? I then can show how I made the rings and describe the process in how to get the proper height between the front and back rings so to keep the cross hairs centered in the scope and not to run out of adjustment. Not a job for everyone but there are those out there who may want to give it a try or knows someone who can do it for them. Again nothing that will damage or alter the gun itself. I can also describe what it takes to regulate a double rifle and what effects a scope has on the regulation after mounting one versus without. This is again something those with double rifle and double rifle drillings would need to know.

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
I'm on your side, I didn't like it when they took my data out. I just wanted to spare you the experience of having it happen to you. This was in WAIDMANNSHEIL articles only, no one changed anything I wrote in the Forum. In the Forum, if I said something wrong, someone would chime in and we could discuss it. In my view, this is the way it should be. I don't have one, but I would be interested in how you make cases for the 9.3x80R Collath (I understood it is something other than shortening Bertram 9.3x82R cases).I have a little experience swaging heads of cartridges and adding rims, but not redrawing cases. I would like to learn this from you. With regard to eye relief , you and Diz are right that it has to be considered. See my comment above about taking the gun when choosing a scope and measuring to determine the location of the bases. The measurement establishes a location that insures eye relief is considered. I learned to do this by laying the gun and scope on a table in the correct position for eye relief and mark the base location from this. No other person or magnets are required, but I am not vain enough to say my way is the only way to do it. I learned in one shop in Germany, other shops in the town, and certainly the rest of Germany, may have done it differently. I got involved in a discussion about fitting clawmounts, sometime ago, on Doublegun. I am curious, was this your thread? Over there, I go by "Der Ami".
Mike

[Diz]

When it comes to posting load data I am reluctant to do it as you never know where it is going to go. I will send someone a data sheet from my QuickLoad program sometimes but they need to interpret what it is telling them. That's the way it is these days.

Thanks, Diz

[mike ford]

Diz,
It's the same as what I did. I said they were loads that I and my friends used in our guns, not recommendations as in a loading manual. We knew our guns and components, but nothing about the reader's guns. The readers had to decide for themselves which load to use. The idea was to help someone that didn't know what a 9.3x72R was, find out about cases, bullets, loads, dies, a little history, different levels of proof, etc; and not have to search all over the place to find the info.
Mike

[Leatherman]

Mike, it wasn't my thread in Doublegun. I am not poseing to be an expert on mounting scopes with claw mounts. I bought a used vertical mill for $500 to try my hand at making some claw mounts because I had a couple of guns that had bases and I wasn't going to pay $700 or more for scope rings if I could do it myself. Well I have gained an understanding why it cost so much. But I also have an extra pride in doing it myself. My first set of rings I made paid for the mill. What I would like to offer is an alternate and cheaper way to mount a 1" scope to ones claw mounted weapon for the DYI crowd. I had no previous milling experience but was successful in mounting several rings on my drillings and rifles. I even made a magnetic mount for a drilling that does not have any bases, and it works fantastic. This opens up a lot of possibilities for people wishing they had a scope on their scopeless drilling. I want to wait until I am all finished with the mounts on my Collath rifle and have got it shooting with and without the scope before I start the post. Right now I am waiting on my local gunsmith to heat treat/harden a main spring I had to make for it. I had to do some trigger work on it, set trigger wouldn't set, and the back trigger was about 10 pounds with a lot of creep

[Leatherman]

Sorry I hit the post button prematurely . Any way when I reassembled the gun , the right hammer spring broke when I cocked it. So I had to learn how to make a spring! I hope to have it all done in the next month or two. It has been a journey working on this double rifle believe me.

[Peter K]

Leaherman, you have me all excited about your diu projects that you want to make available here or in one of our publications. I'm working on a 50 cal (low pressure) double rifle right now myself. I need to spread the barrels to increase the distance where the bullets cross. My gun is not a fine old German gun but a junker that a friend of mine put together. These topics of making mounts and regulating guns will be fun to read and study.

My diu gun smithing is on hold right now as I'm getting ready for our annual Moose and Bear hunt. One in our party also has a Grizzly tag. My Sauer 200 in 30-06 is getting the nod this year. I feel that all of my guns should get a chance to shoot something but they have to wait their turn. Last year the sporter 98 Mauser got the nod and downed a nice bull Moose at 320 yards.
Peter

[mike ford]

Leatherman,
That all sounds great, especially the magnetic mounts. I look forward to reading about it. What kind of mill did you get (I'm a tool junkie)? What state do you live in? When I get a gun that the set trigger won't set in, the first thing I check is the adjustment screw. People that don't understand set triggers usually think it adjusts the unset pull weight, 90% of the time, that's the problem.
Mike

[Leatherman]

Peter, you will need to lower your velocity to get the barrels to come together if they are shooting apart (crossing). If you can't get good results try going to a heavier bullet and start over. I am with you on taking all my German guns out and taking something with them. My first kill was last year with my 8x58 Sauer Heeren single shot rifle. Just a little whitetail doe but it was a proud moment having put the components together to reload cartridges, making scope mounts for it and developeing the load. image.jpg
I have a 9.3x72 hammer drilling ready to go and a side lock 9.3 x 72 as well. But I would really like to get this Collath ready for this years season. I am going to Montana this November for elk and deer but since it will be my first year out west I am taking something that will shoot a little farther for more insurance. I am building a Heeren action in 6.5x57R but I haven't got the barrel yet. I will be taking my 6.5 x 57 drilling along as a backup.
Mike, I bought an Enco vertical mill. Well worn but works good enough. I live in Carlisle Pa, not far from you as I recall your in the Allentown area.