Help Identifying Drilling

[checksixx]

My mother got this drilling from my grandfather many years ago. She wants to sell it and took it to a LGS. There they told her it was made by Whittener and threw it on gunbroker without doing any research. It didn't sell. She came to me for help and I found out, rather quickly, Whittener Steelworks provided the barrel steel from 1860 to 1895, however, most likely had nothing to do with the actual assembly or making shotguns.

So I'm here asking for help identifying the gun and any guesses to its value. She may end up keeping it and insuring it...not sure. More pics can be taken if it helps. Thank you!

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[checksixx]

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[Diz]

checksixx,

Very interesting piece but could you get more pictures of just in front of the barrel lugs? I assume there isn't any markings on the barrel rib where the maker would likely be shown. Some members could identify it by other stampings, so get pictures of everything you can find no matter how insignificant it looks.

Thanks, Diz

[rtenenbown]

Please post more photos of all of the proof marks.
Including those on the rifle barrel.
Often rubbing some white chalk into the stampings and lighting from the side will aid in producing legible photos.
The more proof marks that can be clearly seen the more accurately the gun can be identified.
What state are you located in?
looks very nice, on of the experts will be along soon I'm sure.

[sharps4590]

That drilling appears to be in remarkable condition, very nice. It was proofed in Suhl but I can't see a date code. Shotgun chambers are 2 1/2-9/16 unless they've been lengthened. 8,7mm could be one of several cartridges and as lawdog mentioned good pics of the rifle barrel proofs would help.

[checksixx]

Gentleman,

Thanks for the responses so far! My mother is in possession of it in Michigan. I'll have them take better photo's and post them soon!

[mike ford]

checksixx,
As others have stated, more photos would be helpful. In the meantime, this is the best I can do. The 8.7mm is the bore diameter(not groove or bullet dia.) This mark is found on several different calibers, but the most common is the 9.3x72R.At the time your grandfather got it( I guess it was a WW2 bring back),ammo was not available in the US, except custom loaded with either original cases or redrawn 30-40Krag or 30-06 cases. Factory made ammo is now available, made by S&B, or you may be lucky enough to find old stock by RWS, Norma, or DWM(Speer).As sharps4590 stated, it was originally chambered for 65mm shells. I noted a 70 stamped on the barrel flat. This might indicate it has been rechamberd for 2 3/4" shells, it is worth having it checked. With the bore diameter shown in mm instead of guage, it was proofed 1912 or after. If it has no date stamping, it would have been proofed 1923 or before. If there is a date code, that will be the date it was proofed. This type drilling was pretty common(read popular) at the time. Since there is no makers mark, it was made "for the trade", by any one of several different makers. In the photograph, the underlever seems to be hanging loose( spring problem?), this might be why it didn't sell, or maybe a too high minimum price was set. I believe it was refinished(incl reblue, stock refinish, re colorcased), if not, the condition on the outside is remarkable.
Mike

[Kiwi_bloke]

It's true that 8,7mm often indicates a 9,3x72R and a cerosafe bore casting would provide the answer, but there are 3 versions of that cartridge, the D, (Deutsch), E, (English) and N (Normal). I had the D model, and current S&B (N) brass needed to be put through the appropriate CH die set before it would fit. No problem after that. The type of snap-lock action and even the engraving of the stag were identical to the one pictured. I had a lot of misfires until I replaced the 3 firing spring springs with ones that were square in section, which meant they had more energy. Round section springs of the necessary energy were too wide and caught on each other.

[Kiwi_bloke]

That should read chamber casting as well as a portion of the bore. There are other lengths of 9,3mm, so a casting is good insurance.

That "70" mark does suggest the shotgun chamber has been lengthened, but marks can be misleading. To establish the length of a 16 gauge chamber of a Sodia BBF that was "probably lengthened by the previous owner while he was still in Germany", I once turned down a piece of steel until it was the standard chamber dimension, then inserted it and marked with black felt tip where it came out. Then measured it. It was either 65 or 67mm, I don't recall, but it wasn't 70 as claimed.

[mike ford]

checksixx,
Kiwi_bloke's comment that there are different versions of 9.3x72R is correct, but this is not a problem requiring custom made loading dies. Once the cases have been fireformed to the chamber, 9.3x72R norm. dies can be used. A 38-55 file/trim die will usually size the case enough to chamber( or a FL sizing die of the type that the expanding plug is screwed into a plug which is screwed into the die, rather than the die itself). Some "D" chambered rifles have rim recess cut for a thinner rim than "N" cases, as well. Since your Drilling seems to have been refinished and rechambered, I suspect any issues with the rifle chamber would have been addressed at the same time.
Mike

[Kiwi_bloke]

CH made a run of the dies that suited my 9,3x72R "D" chamber. They were not expensive and they worked very well. The advantage of getting the correct die is that it will not overwork the brass with each reloading. But also that, your case will drop right in flush and the gun will close and you will hear the locks snick up tight.

The rim thickness issue I got around by making a spigot to mount the cases in a lathe for turning down the rim, not from the base end which would weaken the whole head, but from the other side. Around 1912 the 9,3x72R was "normalised" which is to say these 2 case variations, "D" and "E" were rationalised into a single "N". That is what ammo companies like Norma, RWS and S&B have sold since.

If you remove the barrel, set the extractor flush, drop a modern 9,3x72R case into the action and the case chambers and the rim sits flush, that would suggest it was either made after 1912 or as Mike says, the chamber was later "Normalised", just like the ammo. There are case drawings floating around that show the differences and, you can also mark off with a felt tip pen every 5mm or so along a Cerosafe chamber cast and measure the diameter at each point, then compare it to the case drawing dimensions. This will show if the case has a straight taper or a curved shape. If your new case sits around 1/2" or so proud, and you want a set of those CH dies, suggest you send the chamber cast to CH or even just the dimensions.

J.C. Munnell wrote about the 9,3x72R variations in The Accurate Rifle magazine in October 2003 and also about the different case shapes in The Accurate Rifle October 2001, (which was titled, "Sorting out the 8x72R cartridges", so this problem is not unique to 9,3x72R).

BTW, there's a thing called a Merit dioptre that you can stick on your shooting glasses. It's like a camera lens. You turn it until the target and sights in the aperture all start to look crisp. The ideal aperture can vary according to light conditions. When you're shooting these old open sighted guns, and want to really see how tight they can group, this is the thing to do it, especially if your eyes are getting on a bit in years.

[sharps4590]

For many years I've used a piece of blue painters tape with a hole of approx. 1/8-3/16 punched in it for the same purpose. Works great. Once you figure out where to place it on your glasses lens it will go the same place all the time for rifles. Sure sharpens up the sights and for the most part does not obscure normal vision. For me when shooting handguns the tape goes more in the center and does obscure the vision a bit.

[mike ford]

Just a couple points. Using "norm." dies to load ammo for "D" chambered rifles doesn't overwork the brass at all, as they effectively become "neck sizing" dies . Also, with the bore diameter being marked in mm rather than ga., it is likely that the drilling was made in or after 1912 and may have been "born" with the "N" chamber.
Mike

[checksixx]

More photo's...some enhanced to show markings. My father said the bluing was repaired in some areas, but restoration work was done carefully due to firearm value. That's all the info I have for it. Anyone have any idea of a valuation??

[checksixx]