Collath Horizontal Pinfire Shotshells

[Aaron]

Allow me to introduce myself. I am Aaron and I am a pinfire collector. I collect the guns and mainly the ammunition. If anyone ever has any questions about German (or any) pinfire cartridges I can definitely try to help you!

I know you guys had a great journal issue dedicated to the Collath guns a couple years ago so I thought I would share my collection of Collath Horizontal Pinfire Shotshells with you!

It is the largest collection of them that I know of and I am sure there are still plenty more for me to find!

A little background on them for those who may not be familiar:
Wilhelm Collath invented a shotshell variation that had a small pin that rested in a percussion cap half an inch into the case. The wider centerfire hammer would hit the pin which knocked it into the cap to set it off. The reasoning was to make the ignition travel backwards first so that it would have a little more time to burn the powder before building up the pressure to propel the shot. This allowed for less burning powder to travel down the barrel.

He also came up with his own size numbering system. They roughly equate like this:
0 -> 10g
1 -> 12g
3 -> 14g
4 -> 16g
5 -> 18g
6 -> 20g
7 -> 24g
8 -> 28g

As shown in the picture, they were also, but not commonly, made in a couple of the regular English gauges.

*Click Here for a VERY HIGH RESOLUTION version* that can be examined in more detail.

[mike ford]

Aaron,
Thanks. When you mentioned "you guys", it makes me think you aren't a member of the GGCA.If this is so, I encourage you to join. You obviously have similar interests and I believe you will enjoy it a lot. Members enjoy a 10% discount on things such as the journals you mentioned, as reprints.Of course, current members recieve them free as part of the membership.
Mike

[Diz]

Aaron,

This is a very interesting collection of cartridges, can you elaborate on the horizontal pin fire system? Just exactly how does it work? Do you have a sectioned cartridge to illustrate? I am not familiar with this ignition system.

I do have a nice Collath drilling in standard 12 gauge x 9.3x72R. Also an interesting piece especially the locking system.

As Mike mentioned if you are not currently a member, you should join as there is a great depth of knowledge in the membership.

Thanks for posting, Diz

[chapmen]

Many thanks for this and especially for your website!!!!!!!
We are absolutely on one line with your words about an collection and give it to all interested people to share about www !!!!!!!!!

[Aaron]

Just exactly how does it work?

Well, what I lack in tools I make up for in extra pinfire cartridges! I cut one open to kind of give an idea.

First though, to understand horizontal pinfires you need to understand "regular" pinfire cartridges.

Centerfire cartridges - the hammer hits the center,
rimfire - the hammer hits the rim.
pinfire - the hammer hits the pin.



The hammer hits the pin down into the case where it ignites a percussion cap that the pin is resting it.

Now a "horizontal pinfire" cartridge is the exact same principle, except the pin is typically parallel to the case rather than perpendicular. Now if you have ever shot black powder anything one will often notice that there is a much more pronounced flash at the end of the barrel, or even fire/explosion continuing out the barrel. These cartridges, and especially the metallic horizontal pinfire cartridges for pistols had the idea to start the explosion deeper in the case and have the explosion first travel backwards so that there was more time for the powder to burn up and generate pressure.



Collath utilized this principal in these shotshells by making the pin go up an inch inside the case as rest on a percussion cap rather than just having a primer on the base. The pin and the cap are inside this little capsule which is affixed to the bottom.

[Diz]

I visited your website and must say it is very interesting and informative. Excellent actually. I see from the one photo how the primer is held and that is the part I was wondering about. I believe the theory about the burning of the powder is correct to some degree and I have experimented in the past with a "front ignition system" for pistol cartridges. Of course these were smokeless and it seemed there was very little to gain by the system except a lot of work and aggravation. Perhaps I should rethink the method and use a pin instead of a tube!

Thanks again for this interesting thread.

Diz

[mike ford]

In the recent journal about Collath guns and cartridges(2 mags in set)had a good explanation of the Collath cartridges, including the horizontal pinfires.You can almost explain this system as a modified needlefire with a two part "needle"(part in the gun and part in the cartridge).I can't verify it but the inspiration , for this, may have come from the needlefire rifles, used in the 1870s(different systems were tried{including the Mauser bros.system}to convert these rifles to use better ammo).Elmer Keith's,et.al.,"Duplex"system was very much as Diz described,except for rifle cartridges.This did exibit higher velocities, but he didn't have strain guages or other means to actually measure pressures.He was very "hush-hush" about it, saying he didn't want the enemy to find out and use it against our soldiers.Front ignition wasn't much of a secret, everyone had been using it in artillery ammo for years.This use has enough advantages to offset the problems loading it, but doing it in small arms ammo, does not.
Mike

[Axel E]

Elmer Keith did not need to be so "hush-hush" about his '"secret invention", front ignition of powder charges. The advantages and disadvantages of front-, central- and rear-ignition were discussed at length in R. Corneli's big (10.5x15", 394 pages) 1884 book "Die Jagd und ihre Wandlungen". Remember, Dreyse's original needle fire cartridges had the primer in the sabot or wad, in front of the powder charge, while other needlefires as well as rim- and modern centerfires featured rear ignition. The Teschner cartridges are sort of central ignition, as the priming container is surrounded by the powder charge. Others had already placed the primer farther forward, about in the middle of the powder charge. About 1900 a Belgian officer named Marga even went a step further than Keith: His rifle cartridge also had an inner tube, the front end closed by the cone-shaped boattail of his jacketed bullet. Marga filled this inner tube with a primary powder charge, meant to start the bullet into the rifling and then to ignite the main charge from the front.
Obviously, all the theoretical advantages of front- or middle-ignition were outweighed by the complications of manufacture, plus problems in reliable gas sealing the primer hole at more than blackpowder pressures, as those systems in small arms were all but forgotten by WW1, even more so when Keith reinvented the wheel in the late 1930s.
The purpose of Wilhelm Collath's design with that nail inside: On needlefire guns the needle was the most vulnerable part, broken and to be replaced quite often. Especially in the origial Dreyse front ignition cartidges the needle was in the center of the burning powder charge, with the tip inside the corrosive priming compound, so it did not last long. Each Prussian soldier in the 1864, 1866 and 1870-71 wars carried a supply of spare firing needles and was well trained to replace the damaged ones. There was even a notch in the right side of the military bolt actions to help in adjusting needle protrusion. Collath simply made the vulnerable part of the needle an integral part of the cartridge, So it was automatically replaced on each loading.
Aaron, noone in Germany calls the Teschner-Collath type cartridges something like "horizontal" pinfires. Instead, they are known here as "Nagelzünderpatronen" = nail fire cartridges, for the nail-shaped firing pin inside the base. Collath himself simply called them "Stiftfeuerpatronen".
The short cases in your pictures with "normal" gauge numbers were the contemporary rifle cases, see Corneli's Fig.46 below . Collath did not extend his proprietary number system to his rifle barrels.
The thin paper Teschner & Co., Wilhelm Collath cartridges were widely reloaded here, at least the base was reused: Tear of the remains of the paper body from the base. Push back the nail to it's original position. Glue on a new papermache "hat", containing the priming compound. These hats were sold by Tesco for reloading. Glue on an new paper tube and load with powder, wad and shot as usual.
Here are two drawings of the Teschner/Collath cartridges, one from Zimmer's 1877 edition, the other from Corneli's book. Corneli's also shows the recommended way to close the thin paper case in front of the shot charge.

[Dan Patch]

Mike: Of the various efforts to convert Dreyse-type needle rifles to metallic cartridges I believe the only widely-used system of alteration was the German conversion of French Chassepot rifles and carbines captured in the Franco-Prussian War. The German carbine conversions, in 11 m/m Mauser caliber, are still relatively common and evidently mechanically satisfactory. Dan

[mike ford]

Dan,
I wrote about that conversion in my article in WAIDMANNSHEIL about 11mm cartridges, and my opinion about the effect it had on the 11.15x60R cartridge and the groove diameter in Mod 1871 Mauser rifles. The Mauser Bros. concept was originally a method to convert Dreyse or Chassepot or other rifles, as well.People all over the world, at the time, such as Allin,Synder, et.al. were looking for ways to convert current stocks of rifles to use cartridges.
Mike

[Axel E]

I believe the only widely-used system of alteration was the German conversion of French Chassepot rifles and carbines captured in the Franco-Prussian War.

No. Berger's needle fire locks(see the other thread "Gottfr Funk doulbe shotgun unusual system") , combined with not only with the original slide and drop action, but also with Lefaucheux or Roux-Schneider break open actions, made the transition to centerfires. Apparently such centerfires with Berger's coil spring - striker locks were reasonably popular in Germany during the 1870s - 80s. Several were shown in old issues of GGCA's "Der Waffenschmied" and "Waidmannsheil". Such guns were called "Fuerst - Pless - Gewehr" = Prince Pless Gun after Heinrich XI, Prince of Pless, one of the wealthiest noblemen in Germany then, chief of hunting at the court of both Kaiser Wilhelm I and II, also the inventor and composer of the "Fuerst Pless Horn", the now traditional signal bugle used by German hunters.

[Dan Patch]

Point well-taken. I will alter that final sentence and add another to read thus: The most widely-used system of alteration was the German conversion of French Chassepot rifles and carbines captured in the Franco-Prussian War. These found use in Latin American, and perhaps elsewhere, well into the 20th century.