Carl Paubel 10 gauge

[Steve Whitley]

Sorry, Steve, but here you are wrong, the name is not related to a Slavic word. "Borussia" or "Prussia" are relatively new, 17th century creations, when "learned" people preferred to express anything in upnose Latin. Prussia, Preussen in German, was not named so as it was close to Russia, "Po Rus" maybe in Slavic languages, but after a not Slavic, but Baltic language speaking heathen people who called themselves Prusai, "many people". They inhabitated the land that was to become East and West Prussia before the German Order colonized and made them Christians in the Middle Ages. The earliest Latin mention, 9th century, wrote "Bruzi". German spellings developed from Prusse and Priuze to Preussen. One version of the latinised spellings, Prussia, was taken over into English. The other one, Borussia, was quite popular in Germany from the 19th century to WW1. Many clubs, social and sporting, still have "Borussia" in their name. "Borussia Dortmund" f.i. is a soccer team in the top German league.

Sorry, Axel, but I assume you mean [I]my source[I] is wrong. Neo-Latin influence would doubtless be the origin of the term "Prussia" in English language uses. The only authoritative etymological source I find indicating the "Porussia" term, without a leap, is the following.

Prussia.jpg

Regards,
Steve

[Ghostrider]

I'm really happy to have found this site. My 3rd grade teacher many years ago used to say " It's a poor day that you do not learn at least one thing new" I have learned a lot over the last week from this site.
I have another question I am hoping to understand. The Serial number would indicate a fair number of guns manufactured yet so little is known on the builder. Any thoughts?

[Axel E]

Steve, don't you think your 1898 source is perhaps a bit outdated? First, the Old Prussian language is not closely related to the Slavic or Slavonic languages. It was a West Baltic language. All the three West Baltic languages are extinct since the 18th century, just like Cornish in Britain or Bretonic in France. Although related, the East Baltic Lithuanian and Latvian, and particularly the Old Prussian vocabularies differ substantially from one another and are not mutually intelligible. The now-extinct Old Prussian language is considered the most archaic of the Baltic languages.
In Old Prussian texts the adjective prusiskan = prussian, Prusas = a Prussian and Prusai = Prussians are preserved (R. Trautmann: Die altpreussischen Sprachdenkmäler, 1910).
Rainer Eckert: Altpreussisch, in: Lexikon der Sprachen des europaeischen Ostens, 2002, relates it to the name of a water(river, sea, lake): It may be a relative to Lithuanian "prausti" = washing the face, Old Prussian "prusnas" = the face.
On the other hand Wolfram Euler: Das Altpreussische als Volkssprache, 1988, relates the word to Lithuanian "prusti" = growing numbers. So it may mean something like "many people".
The word cannot be related to Slavic "po Russia" = near Russia, as Brewer thought more than 125 years ago, for several reasons: The Baltic word for the Slavic "po, pod" is "pa". Noone ever wrote "Barussia". The anonymous "Geographus Bavarus" , about 845, wrote the name of the people "Bruzi", without a vowel in between B and r. This was more than 100 years before the Kievan Rus' established their Slavic empire and another 100 years before that empire expanded to come near the Old Prussians. "Russia" is an even more modern name: It came into use from the 17th century on only.

[Axel E]

The Serial number would indicate a fair number of guns manufactured yet so little is known on the builder. Any thoughts?

A common problem with most of the pre-WW1 smaller German gunmakers. They were soon forgotten after their death. We are lucky that members Bernd Kellner and Karl H. Pape collected any snippet of info on most names. But, more often than not, all we have are addresses and approximate dates. Any ledgers or books are lost as these most often did not survive. So, all we have are surviving guns and, perhaps, DRP patents and the cryptic headings of DRGM protected designs. plus maybe some contemporary ads in old hunting or gun magazines.
We are just badly paid off heirs... (J.J.Winkelmann, 1715 -1768, "The prophet and founding hero of modern archaeology")

[Steve Whitley]

Steve, don't you think your 1898 source is perhaps a bit outdated? First, the Old Prussian language is not closely related to the Slavic or Slavonic languages. It was a West Baltic language. All the three West Baltic languages are extinct since the 18th century, just like Cornish in Britain or Bretonic in France. Although related, the East Baltic Lithuanian and Latvian, and particularly the Old Prussian vocabularies differ substantially from one another and are not mutually intelligible. The now-extinct Old Prussian language is considered the most archaic of the Baltic languages.
In Old Prussian texts the adjective prusiskan = prussian, Prusas = a Prussian and Prusai = Prussians are preserved (R. Trautmann: Die altpreussischen Sprachdenkmäler, 1910).
Rainer Eckert: Altpreussisch, in: Lexikon der Sprachen des europaeischen Ostens, 2002, relates it to the name of a water(river, sea, lake): It may be a relative to Lithuanian "prausti" = washing the face, Old Prussian "prusnas" = the face.
On the other hand Wolfram Euler: Das Altpreussische als Volkssprache, 1988, relates the word to Lithuanian "prusti" = growing numbers. So it may mean something like "many people".
The word cannot be related to Slavic "po Russia" = near Russia, as Brewer thought more than 125 years ago, for several reasons: The Baltic word for the Slavic "po, pod" is "pa". Noone ever wrote "Barussia". The anonymous "Geographus Bavarus" , about 845, wrote the name of the people "Bruzi", without a vowel in between B and r. This was more than 100 years before the Kievan Rus' established their Slavic empire and another 100 years before that empire expanded to come near the Old Prussians. "Russia" is an even more modern name: It came into use from the 17th century on only.

How can one be "outdated" in looking for the source of a word? The idea (entirely) is to locate the word's earliest entry into use in a given language. The whole purpose of the Oxford English Dictionary is the recording of a word's first known use in print. The earlier, the better.
The Baltic possibility would bear more weight, if there was more resemblance between any of the possible sources cited and the end result. I'm not seeing that here.

[Ghostrider]

How can one be "outdated" in looking for the source of a word? The idea (entirely) is to locate the word's earliest entry into use in a given language. The whole purpose of the Oxford English Dictionary is the recording of a word's first known use in print. The earlier, the better.
The Baltic possibility would bear more weight, if there was more resemblance between any of the possible sources cited and the end result. I'm not seeing that here.

I'm lucky to understand the English language. So I have an open mind to the feedback on the word Porussia. Until Steve found this word in the Dictionary I tried Googling the word and never received one hit. I believe it was Ellenbr on the Doublegun site that suggested my gun was made pre 1893 so possibly Porussia was purposely engraved on the barrels and side plate. I hope more information on Porussia can be found. I also understand that the maker was possibly related to Funk. Thanks again to each of you for helping me research this great old SxS.

[Axel E]

I also understand that the maker was possibly related to Funk.

Yes, Paubel was related to a Funk, but not the well-known Christoph Funk Company, which advertized "The first Name is important!": There were no less than 33 gunmakers named Funk active in Suhl between 1850 and 1945, most often competitors. Christoph Funk and C.A. Funk & Co. existed until 1945. Carl Paubel took over the shop of a Jacob Funk, about 1870. How Jacob was related to the other Funks is not known. Most likely all the Suhl Funks were descendants of a Claus Funk, mentioned as a Suhl gunsmith in 1606.

[Ghostrider]

Axel E, thank you for this information, I will see what I can find on Google. Can you tell me where you were able to dig up the information related to the Jacob Funk/Carl Paubel relationship?

[Peter K]

The family relationships among the Funks and Paubel could probably be sorted out if the church records for that time period still exist. If so Ancestry.com likely has a copy which can be accessed. It would require some fluency in gothic cursive german.

This thread has been a wonderful history lesson.
Peter

[Axel E]

Can you tell me where you were able to dig up the information related to the Jacob Funk/Carl Paubel relationship?

From the source already mentioned above, Kellner'S & Pape's Directory of the German guntrade. You got a PM:

[Axel E]

I hope more information on Porussia can be found.

I doubt you will ever find information on the queer spelling "Porussia", as it is a writing error of the engraver IMHO. Marking the country of origin was required by a British law from 1887 on only. For the German market such a marking was unnecessary. Everybody knew that Suhl was in "Preussen". So such a marking would be as superfluous as "New York in USA" would be to an American. Would any American maker mark his wares, destined for the German market, with the German words "Hergestellt in den Vereinigten Staaten von Amerika" instead of "Made in USA"?
Foreign languages, especially English, were not part of the education of a 19th century Suhl craftsman. To the engraver the name of the country was "Preussen", pure and simple. Now he was required to engrave the name of the country in an outlandish, English language. He dimly remembered two foreign names, "Prussia" and "Borussia". Inadvertedly he mixed up both spellings from memory and created "Porussia" this way.

[Ghostrider]

Thank you Avel E. For the additional information. Your explanation is reasonable. I looked for the PM but my in box shows 0.

[Axel E]

I looked for the PM but my in box shows 0.

Look again, 2nd try, 2 PMs now.

[Ghostrider]

Thank you I found them? I appreciate your help.

[Steve Whitley]

If a person searches diligently, information can be found. Sometimes you have to turn over quite a few rocks in the creek before you find a crawdad. It doesn't mean there aren't any there.
Here are some references to Porussia; dating from 1896, 1917, and 1878, respectively:

porussia 1896 definition.jpgporussia the beginning 1917.jpgprussia info - 1878.jpg

Steve