To normalize or not...

[sharps4590]

Now there's a couple cool rifle cartridges! I have an 11.15 X 60R Mauser in a double rifle and the 450 just has to be a great cartridge in addition to being a lot of fun to work with. A Meffert drilling on a Dural receiver was my first German firearm, in 16 X 16 over 7 X 57R. Only firearm I ever altered, lengthened the chambers for 2 3/4 hulls, and have regretted it ever since. That was 25 years ago and I had no knowledge of shortening 2 3/4 hulls back then. Someone had already opened up the chokes so I suppose it didn't matter at that point.

[mike ford]

Vic,
Extending the chambers of more modern, hammerless 16 ga shotguns is one of the other rechamber jobs I don't have a problem with. I use a long forcing cone reamer, but I did my German gunsmith friends own old hammer gun for him, at his request, using his standard reamer. This went a long way toward removing my objections. Of course, this extends to "working guns", not really old or very collectable ones. I know others have other, understandable, ideas about that.
Tom,
Your old Meffert drilling sounds like a fun project.I wouldn't worry much about some pits in the shot barrels. Sometimes barrels are harmed worse by trying to remove pits, which won't make a lot of difference anyway. There is a 3 part article in WAIDMANNSHEIL ( I think about #39-41) that you may find interesting when loading for the 11mm barrel.
Mike

[Tom H.]

The 450 is a hoot. Using shortened 45 basic brass with a sleeve cut from some 50 Action express and fireformed. They worked out great. Current load is reloader 15 and a .452 300gr lead gas check for about 1700fps. Could do more but the gun weighs about 6.5 # so why bother.
I really do want to lap at least some of the pitting out as the tubes look like a disaster. Want more than need. I started t doing it and realized that there are some jobs that you sub out. If I had the space I would pick up an old lathe and make my own bench but for now not happening.
The only problem I have with truly lengthening chambers is that I was taught that .090 is as thin as you go over the chamber. Most European guns wouldn't withstand the reaming of the extra 3/8 if I stick with that number. Not worried with me shooting it, just not sure what the next person will do.
Tom

[mike ford]

Tom, They are your guns, I wouldn't advise doing anything you wouldn't be comfortable with. Anyway, you shouldn't have to go 3/8"(.375"), 70mm minus 65mm is 5mm or about .200". That is why I use a long forcing cone instead of a standard reamer. The .450 does sound like a "hoot". Maybe your wife wouldn't mind too much if you put a lathe in the bedroom.
Mike

[sharps4590]

The Meffert is from '35 or '36 so I don't feel too bad about it I should probably sell it as it mostly sits in the back of the safe looking lonely...except there is that "first" thing and I do like the 7 X 57R.

You're shooting smokeless in that BPE?.....Sacrilege!!!

[Tom H.]

Lathe in the bedroom? I think that she is pretty happy with the basement arrangement. Also, thanks for the help on the math. .200 is correct. I stocked up on 2.5" whenever I can and the RST is competitive enough to make it worth while without cutting the chamber.
Yes Vic, NFB. Didn't think that I would be publically shamed over the BP thing but then again you are probably right. You have to admit though, the NFB kicks a lot less.

Tom

[sharps4590]

lol!! Nahhh...no shame in that, (Mike is probably mumbling about me under his breath about my love for BP...hehe). I usually work up a NFB load for my BPC rifles, once a BP load is developed, for the convenience of it for my daily "woods walks" if I want to carry one of those rifles and won't have time to clean it and the brass. You're absolutely correct about the recoil! My 500 BPE with its NFB load is a pussycat. Load 130 grs. of black under the same bullet and it becomes a smoke belching, fire breathing, rompin', stompin' beast!!!

You mentioned a sleeve from a 50 AE for the 450. I believe I know what you're talking about but would you be so kind as to describe what you're doing? Is the 450 basic brass too small in the head area and you have to sleeve it to a larger diameter?

Vic

[Tom H.]

The 45 basic conversion is straightforward. Thin the rim from the back for pistol primers, Thin from the front to make up the difference. Narrow the rim, cut the case to length. Yeah, I know, you knew all that. Take a 50AE case and you can get 2 (IIRC) sleeves that are correct diameter and just slightly further forward than the web. One firing makes them permanent.


Could someone please give me the metric designation for the cartridge?

Thanks

Tom

[Axel E]

Could someone please give me the metric designation for the cartridge?

As usual in blackpowder times, a cartridge with several names:
A common name: 11.6x 65R D EXPRESS or 450 2-1/2 in
DWM, case number 191, called it 11.65x65.4R (450) in their case book. Their 1904 catalog shows these dimensions: rim 15.75 mm, base 14.0 mm, length 65.4 mm
Roth, Austria, case number 155, called it 11.6x65R (450)

[sharps4590]

Thanks Tom & Axel. Tom, I thought that was what you were doing but wasn't sure. I appreciate your time in explaining and confirming. To sleeve a case is something I've not had to do......yet.

Vic

[Tom H.]

Thanks Axel. For some reason I vaguely remember x60R. Does that version exist?
As for the sleeve, the first one was done with electric tape. Still reloading that case and the tape is holding up fine.

Tom

[Axel E]

As you gave your chamber length above as 2 5/8" = 66.6 mm, I assumed your driling is in 11.6x65R D EXPRESS. There were three .450 case lengths formerly used in Germany.
11.6x60R D aka 450 Kurz aka .450 2 3/8" This was the case length of the Boxer-Henry Carbine brass foil cartridges as used by the New South Wales Colonial police from 1870
11.6x65R D aka .450 2 ½" British examples are known only as brass foil, no drawn brass cases known.
11.6x83R aka 450 Lang aka .450 3 ¼". Only the x83 long case came in both D and E shapes. As in the 9.3x72R the E(nglish) shape was a straight taper from base to mouth, while the D(eutsch) shape featured a rapid taper first, then was almost straight to the mouth. The D shaped chambers may have originated in better fitting the chambers to the original British .360, .450 and .500 cases made of wound brass foil with a reinforcing ring around the base. Before firing, the brass foil tubes of these cases were cylindrical and swell badly about midriff on firing to fill the conical chambers.

[mike ford]

Tom,
If your rifle is really 60mm after all, I suggest you buy 45-90 brass next time you need some. It will be cheaper than basic brass and you won't need to shorten it as much. This brass hasn't always been avaliable, but now BPCR shooters use it. It may be that 50-100 can be used w/o bushing it. Just a thought, it's not my rifle.
Mike

[Diz]

Tom,

I read this thread a couple of times and I'm having a bit of trouble understanding why you need to sleeve a .450 basic case in a .450 BPE? This case comes in a thin rim but you will see them thick as well. Something just seems a bit strange. Can you put me straight?

Thanks, Diz

[Axel E]

why you need to sleeve a .450 basic case in a .450 BPE? This case comes in a thin rim but you will see them thick as well.

apparently Tom H converts American .45 Basic brass to British size .450. The .450 BPE and NE case is more tapered than the American .45 Basic case, but with a base diameter about .04" larger. Just measured examples from my collection:
RCBS .45 BASIC: base .5015", rim diameter .595", rim thickness .069"
old Kynoch .450 BPE: base .5385", rim diameter .613", rim thickness .042
old Kynoch .450 Nitro: base .5415", rim diameter .614", rim thickness .041